Just to update everyone. Having gone through on Sat 23rd Feb the steps appear to have been cut off now. Sadly there's now a load of two inch steel spikes left sticking out of the wall ready to shred the gear of, or at worst, impale the unwary. A bit more tidying to do still...
Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
- Thread starter IanWalker
- Start date
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
WallE said:
How to take a situation from bad to worse...
Taking unilateral action is never the answer. They shouldn't have been put in without consensus but an incompetent dangerous hack job at removing them which someone competent will have to go and sort out just makes it worse.
Simon Wilson
New member
Ian Ball said:
Oh dear indeed.
There is a CNCC meeting soon and I think there's a chance that this matter migh be mentioned. It would be good if we had better information about this so that we can have an informed discussion. If anyone is planning to go there could you please take a camera and get some snaps. It would help if there is something in images to give scale.
Perhaps UKC isn't the best place to discuss errant bolting as it just turns into judgement by the mob. This is mainly due to the absence of people who want to leave it to the CNCC, or don't think they have a significant impact.
The CNCC meetings should have been the first port of call
The CNCC meetings should have been the first port of call
malcolm smith
New member
Sounds like caltrops have been added to make the cave more of a challenge 😀
langcliffe
Well-known member
Canary said:Perhaps UKC isn't the best place to discuss errant bolting as it just turns into judgement by the mob.
The CNCC meetings should have been the first port of call
Ignoring the inflammatory language, whilst I agree that the CNCC should be informed, I really don't see why the cavers whom the CNCC represent shouldn't have an opportunity to express their opinion. With one notable exception, I have been pretty impressed by the quality of the discussion. It certainly doesn't merit your use of the word 'mob'.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Canary said:
Perhaps is arguably unnecessary.
langcliffe
Well-known member
Canary said:
I expressed myself badly, and I didn't mean to imply that - many apologies. But I guess that we have to differ in that I do believe that there is nothing wrong with a discussion on this forum as well, and that I don't believe that those who have expressed an opinion have behaved like a mob.
Many of us at CNCC read this forum, certainly the officers. It is very useful, I think, to read the opinions of other cavers about such issues ahead of any meetings we have - The more the better. At our meetings more opinions will be expressed no doubt and most likely a consensus formed.
Whoever is installing these stirrups, or cutting them off, or chipping holds please stop and think before doing any more.
Whoever is installing these stirrups, or cutting them off, or chipping holds please stop and think before doing any more.
CNCC
Well-known member
Agree totally with Badlad (our Access Officer). Our Secretary, Chair and Conservation Officer are also UKCaving users and contributors.
It is good to see the variety of opinions expressed here. Matters such as this are difficult for the CNCC. We are not the 'cave police' and we have no rights to allow or disallow, condone or condemn the kinds of work people are doing. Incidentally, we have also been made aware of some recent efforts by persons unknown to 'modify the rock' of the Wretched Rabbit entrance climbs; to what end we're not sure, but perhaps to provide footholds. Whether the two incidents are related we cannot be sure.
We do seek however to provide a friendly venue (via our meetings) for such modifications to caves to be discussed before the work is undertaken, and perhaps even for a less damaging alternative to be considered.
The CNCC acted to remove the metal steps in Kingsdale Master Cave (work undertaken last month) as they were not Stainless Steel and thus not corrosion resistant. In time they may have left rust streaks down the wall of the cave. The steps in the Upper Trident climb were stainless steel, so there was no conservation remit for the CNCC to take action against these (it wasn't us who cut them off). It is interesting to see the opinions here and what people think the CNCC should, or should not be doing in such situations.
Remember, our meetings are open, friendly and welcoming, and if you have a project that involves such extensive modifications to a popular cave that you'd like to discuss via a democratic forum, then we are happy to provide that opportunity. Just turn up, or if you would like it specifically putting on the agenda then let our Secretary know.
What this incident has shown is the strength of feeling both for and against such installations; so much so that someone has undertaken the work in the first place, and someone else has taken action to remove them, leaving protruding metal and of course a number of unsightly holes in the rock. Nobody has 'won' or gained anything from this incident. For this reason we'd urge the installer of such metal fixtures to think very carefully and to consult the CNCC before taking any further action that could reduce enjoyment of our cave systems for others.
It is good to see the variety of opinions expressed here. Matters such as this are difficult for the CNCC. We are not the 'cave police' and we have no rights to allow or disallow, condone or condemn the kinds of work people are doing. Incidentally, we have also been made aware of some recent efforts by persons unknown to 'modify the rock' of the Wretched Rabbit entrance climbs; to what end we're not sure, but perhaps to provide footholds. Whether the two incidents are related we cannot be sure.
We do seek however to provide a friendly venue (via our meetings) for such modifications to caves to be discussed before the work is undertaken, and perhaps even for a less damaging alternative to be considered.
The CNCC acted to remove the metal steps in Kingsdale Master Cave (work undertaken last month) as they were not Stainless Steel and thus not corrosion resistant. In time they may have left rust streaks down the wall of the cave. The steps in the Upper Trident climb were stainless steel, so there was no conservation remit for the CNCC to take action against these (it wasn't us who cut them off). It is interesting to see the opinions here and what people think the CNCC should, or should not be doing in such situations.
Remember, our meetings are open, friendly and welcoming, and if you have a project that involves such extensive modifications to a popular cave that you'd like to discuss via a democratic forum, then we are happy to provide that opportunity. Just turn up, or if you would like it specifically putting on the agenda then let our Secretary know.
What this incident has shown is the strength of feeling both for and against such installations; so much so that someone has undertaken the work in the first place, and someone else has taken action to remove them, leaving protruding metal and of course a number of unsightly holes in the rock. Nobody has 'won' or gained anything from this incident. For this reason we'd urge the installer of such metal fixtures to think very carefully and to consult the CNCC before taking any further action that could reduce enjoyment of our cave systems for others.
Simon Wilson
New member
marysboy said:
That would seem to be extremely strange behaviour.
Do you know if the installer cut them off?
It would seem more logical to think that the installer of the steps in KMC and Trident might be the same person.
If you read the CNCC minutes it reads as if the overriding objection to the KMC steps was that they were carbon steel and therefore it follows that stainless ones would be acceptable. A few months later some stainless ones appear. It seems inconceivable that the two cases are not connected.
David Rose
Active member
I've noticed that the CNCC has now equipped Quaking Pot with modern bolts.
The thing is, I'm too big for this cave. In fact, there are many cavers who are too big for it. So I think the time has come to widen some of its more difficult features, such as The Crux. It would mean more people could enjoy the lower reaches of what I'm told is a fine system, and even those who can fit down it now would be able to do it faster, and so have a better chance of making the pub. A win-win! Why should we follow some sort of bizarre thin persons' elitism policy? I've always wanted to see Gormenghast. This will make it possible. We don't have to take off too much. Just enough to make it accessible to those with big chests and broad shoulders.
I'm sure there will be a few stuffy purists who will object, but I propose simply to ignore them. After all, it would make a rescue much easier. We can justify this on safety grounds, if pressed.
Anyone who wants to help with what will be quite a big capping project send me a personal message, and we can take it from there. And unlike these steel via ferrata thingies, once we've widened it, our efforts will be irreversible! After that's done, I propose turning the Daren Cilau entrance crawl into a nice, pleasant walk, so that older cavers can continue to enjoy a visit to the Time Machine.
The thing is, I'm too big for this cave. In fact, there are many cavers who are too big for it. So I think the time has come to widen some of its more difficult features, such as The Crux. It would mean more people could enjoy the lower reaches of what I'm told is a fine system, and even those who can fit down it now would be able to do it faster, and so have a better chance of making the pub. A win-win! Why should we follow some sort of bizarre thin persons' elitism policy? I've always wanted to see Gormenghast. This will make it possible. We don't have to take off too much. Just enough to make it accessible to those with big chests and broad shoulders.
I'm sure there will be a few stuffy purists who will object, but I propose simply to ignore them. After all, it would make a rescue much easier. We can justify this on safety grounds, if pressed.
Anyone who wants to help with what will be quite a big capping project send me a personal message, and we can take it from there. And unlike these steel via ferrata thingies, once we've widened it, our efforts will be irreversible! After that's done, I propose turning the Daren Cilau entrance crawl into a nice, pleasant walk, so that older cavers can continue to enjoy a visit to the Time Machine.
Alex
Well-known member
I think that is a very flippant, deliberately inflammatory and trolling remark by David I see. But I guess his point is where does this stop, but I wonder Dave are you saying in your fashion that p-bolting Quaking was too far then then?
But, if your going to start trolling please keep it to the Daily fail.
But, if your going to start trolling please keep it to the Daily fail.
