Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)

[Tommy]

I've noticed that the CNCC has now equipped Quaking Pot with modern bolts.

The thing is, I'm too big for this cave. In fact, there are many cavers who are too big for it. So I think the time has come to widen some of its more difficult features, such as The Crux. It would mean more people could enjoy the lower reaches of what I'm told is a fine system, and even those who can fit down it now would be able to do it faster, and so have a better chance of making the pub. A win-win! Why should we follow some sort of bizarre thin persons' elitism policy? I've always wanted to see Gormenghast. This will make it possible. We don't have to take off too much. Just enough to make it accessible to those with big chests and broad shoulders.

I'm sure there will be a few stuffy purists who will object, but I propose simply to ignore them. After all, it would make a rescue much easier. We can justify this on safety grounds, if pressed.

Anyone who wants to help with what will be quite a big capping project send me a personal message, and we can take it from there. And unlike these steel via ferrata thingies, once we've widened it, our efforts will be irreversible! After that's done, I propose turning the Daren Cilau entrance crawl into a nice, pleasant walk, so that older cavers can continue to enjoy a visit to the Time Machine.

Caps? We can do better than that surely!

 

[Cavematt]

Alex; I suspect David's comments are intended slightly tongue-in-cheek 

 

[Alex]

Maybe, I had a sense of humour failure then. Apologies. My humour normally revolves around puns.

 

[David Rose]

Alex, my dear chap. I was trying to be humorous. A dangerous game, I know...

 

[thomasr]

Shoudnt you lads be at  work  ?

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Coincidentally Willie Stanton installed a fixed ladder at the 20' in Swildon's Hole (removed almost immediately by a third party who unilaterally took issue with it) and it was the same visionary, Willie Stanton, who installed (they remain to this day) metal steps in Reservoir Hole decades ago. Therefore worry not, and consider any precedents long-since set. The man was ahead of his time. Ahead of many cavers, too.

Not entirely correct.  Stanton rigged a chain to be used as an aid to access the ledge 3m metres along the right hand wall.  From here he installed a small number (4?) of short (about 6 inch) stemples.  You can clearly see the stemples in place but hammered flat so as to be unusable.  So not a fixed ladder but an ingenious minimalist use of natural features and discrete climbing aids. 

 

[David Rose]

Is it true that the entrance pitch of Lancaster Hole once had a fixed ladder in it? I seem to remember there used to be sections of it lying around at the bottom.

 

[IanWalker]

We should not assume the installer and the cutter-offer are different people.

That would seem to be extremely strange behaviour.

Do you know if the installer cut them off?

It would seem more logical to think that the installer of the steps in KMC and Trident might be the same person.

If you read the CNCC minutes it reads as if the overriding objection to the KMC steps was that they were carbon steel and therefore it follows that stainless ones would be acceptable. A few months later some stainless ones appear. It seems inconceivable that the two cases are not connected.

I do not know who cut off the stemples. If i did i would have said so. I'm only saying it MAY have been the installer so don;t jump to conclusions that it MUST be someone else. That they could return to discretely remove (part of) what they installed seems logical to me.

KMC Steps; i started a separate thread because i had no understanding of a link between the two sets of steps (other than outlined in my post above).  The installer MIGHT be the same person but i don't know that and given all the available information to me i think making such a link would be doubtful.  Logical to you does not mean proven correct.

Simon i wish to respectfully ask if you trruly mean 'inconceivable'. As in you cannot conceive an idea that these may be different people installing different kit in different caves.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Inconceivable!

Personally I think that since larger cavers clearly cause all the conservation damage, all caves should be fitted with a 7" slot which you have to squeeze through to gain access...

 

[Alex]

Shoudnt you lads be at  work  ?

Got to do something while my code compiles.

 

[Simon Wilson]

We should not assume the installer and the cutter-offer are different people.

That would seem to be extremely strange behaviour.

Do you know if the installer cut them off?

It would seem more logical to think that the installer of the steps in KMC and Trident might be the same person.

If you read the CNCC minutes it reads as if the overriding objection to the KMC steps was that they were carbon steel and therefore it follows that stainless ones would be acceptable. A few months later some stainless ones appear. It seems inconceivable that the two cases are not connected.

I do not know who cut off the stemples. If i did i would have said so. I'm only saying it MAY have been the installer so don;t jump to conclusions that it MUST be someone else. That they could return to discretely remove (part of) what they installed seems logical to me.

KMC Steps; i started a separate thread because i had no understanding of a link between the two sets of steps (other than outlined in my post above).  The installer MIGHT be the same person but i don't know that and given all the available information to me i think making such a link would be doubtful.  Logical to you does not mean proven correct.

Simon i wish to respectfully ask if you trruly mean 'inconceivable'. As in you cannot conceive an idea that these may be different people installing different kit in different caves.

OK. But you know what I mean.

I'll rephrase it.

It seems to me highly unlikely that someone would install the steps knowing that there would be objections and then a few weeks later remove them after a few quite mild objections.

It seems to me extremely unlikely that there is not some sort of connection between the installations in KMC and those in Trident.

 

[IanWalker]

It seems to me extremely unlikely that there is not some sort of connection between the installations in KMC and those in Trident.

Again i feel you may be over-egging things somewhat. Perhaps you think you are just adding your opinion, but it is potentially misleading to broadcast such a statement. Is there any evidence for such a connection?

Regarding the KMC steps, we have been told they were installed by someone connected with CRO acting independently with rescue in mind. That they were not condoned, largely criticised and then with the installers' input, efforts made to remove them (all last year). We also know they were installed using non-stainless steel.

Re the Trident steps, they were installed by someone who i do not think is connected with CRO, acting individually with sport caving convenience in mind. It seems they were installed much later that the KMC steps, long after the KMC steps were already being discussed for removal. And they were installed in seemingly a stainless steel.

Different material, different cave, different purpose, possibly different installer, different time. Thats Who What Where When and Why mostly different. Let's keep an open mind.

 

[Simon Wilson]

It seems to me extremely unlikely that there is not some sort of connection between the installations in KMC and those in Trident.

Again i feel you may be over-egging things somewhat. Perhaps you think you are just adding your opinion, but it is potentially misleading to broadcast such a statement. Is there any evidence for such a connection?

Regarding the KMC steps, we have been told they were installed by someone connected with CRO acting independently with rescue in mind. That they were not condoned, largely criticised and then with the installers' input, efforts made to remove them (all last year). We also know they were installed using non-stainless steel.

Re the Trident steps, they were installed by someone who i do not think is connected with CRO, acting individually with sport caving convenience in mind. It seems they were installed much later that the KMC steps, long after the KMC steps were already being discussed for removal. And they were installed in seemingly a stainless steel.

Different material, different cave, different purpose, possibly different installer, different time. Thats Who What Where When and Why mostly different. Let's keep an open mind.

The high level traverse in KMC is not difficult for an experienced caver at the point where the steps were installed. If they were installed "with rescue in mind" then in reflects badly on the ability of the rescuer. The evidence suggests to me that the real intention was not for rescue.

I would not say the Trident steps were installed "long after" the KMC steps. The only objection to the KMC steps stated in the CNCC minutes is that "they were not stainless steel". The stainless steel steps in Trident appeared around four months after the CNCC seemed to imply that there might be no objection to stainless steps. Both sets of steps were in easy caves less than four miles apart that are popular with instructed groups.

I am keeping an open mind and I can't avoid seeing connections.

 

[Fulk]

David (Rose): I believe that you are correct in saying that there used to be an iron ladder all the way down Lancaster Hole entrance shaft; I understand that this was installed by Eli Simpson and his cronies in their ill-fated attempt to turn the cave into an underground laboratory.

I can just remember when there was one remaining section, maybe 20 feet long, resting against the wall at the bottom; it made the ladder climb out a tad easier.

I think that the ladder that used to grace Fall Pot came from the entrance-pitch ladder.

 

[IanWalker]

The high level traverse in KMC is not difficult for an experienced caver at the point where the steps were installed. If they were installed "with rescue in mind" then in reflects badly on the ability of the rescuer. The evidence suggests to me that the real intention was not for rescue.

I would not say the Trident steps were installed "long after" the KMC steps. The only objection to the KMC steps stated in the CNCC minutes is that "they were not stainless steel". The stainless steel steps in Trident appeared around four months after the CNCC seemed to imply that there might be no objection to stainless steps. Both sets of steps were in easy caves less than four miles apart that are popular with instructed groups.

I am keeping an open mind and I can't avoid seeing connections.

Well articulated

 

[Pete K]

Both sets of steps were in easy caves less than four miles apart that are popular with instructed groups.

I am keeping an open mind and I can't avoid seeing connections.

Is it not still the case that the Ease Gill system permits do not allow instructed groups? It's always been that way as far as I know.
Do you have some proof against an instructed group and are prepared to name them or is this another unfounded dig at people who are lucky enough to make a living from their hobby?

 

[2xw]

Can't see anything on the CNCC access page about instructed groups for County Pot for example, just maximum group sizes.
Even if there were that doesn't mean instructed groups wouldn't use the area.

I don't think anybody made any accusations but we're just speculating. It wouldn't be surprising given groups of instructors have been pushing for inappropriate aids in other areas of the country.

 

[Pete K]

Can't see anything on the CNCC access page about instructed groups for County Pot for example, just maximum group sizes.

Maybe it has changed recently then, it was always an off limits system. Seemed a bit off to accuse a user group that could not even be in that system.

Even if there were that doesn't mean instructed groups wouldn't use the area.

Says a person who does not understand the way the qualification structure and insurance works. Named sites only on LCMLA tickets I'm afraid, you can't lead in somewhere not on 'the list' and your insurance would sure as hell not pay out if you did and had an incident. Yes, a CIC can go anywhere technically, but they are in such a small number and so high profile that it would be really stupid to do something like that.

I don't think anybody made any accusations but we're just speculating. It wouldn't be surprising given groups of instructors have been pushing for inappropriate aids in other areas of the country.

I think the very fact that that user group was named is accusation enough. Simon's post stood just fine without it. If there is proof then they should be named and no doubt will be dealt with by BCA, otherwise it is just more instructor bashing for the sake of it.
I have seen a particular caving club has carved its initials into the bottom of a mine I helped re-bolt recently. I think on the strength of that that all caving clubs should be thought of as untrustworthy cave-wreckers. See my point? Rediculous isnt it to accuse one entire group based on the actions of a single individual within it?
Do I need to remind you about the group of instructors who voluntarily cleaned up after a caving club party in Bagshawe Cavern a few years ago? I don't think all caving clubs are bad becasue of that, and I don't go around making accusations about them.

That's probably enough about this as it'll drag this thread OT, but I had to answer that point about instructed groups.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Both sets of steps were in easy caves less than four miles apart that are popular with instructed groups.

I am told that Easegill is not open to instructed groups, the only exception being training (e.g. CIC assessments etc) for which a training permit is required.

I can't imagine any instructed group that would want to do the KMC traverse. What would be the point? I wouldn't be surprised if many/most of the instructed groups don't even do the pitch, let alone hundreds of metres of unnecessary traversing. CRO has about hundreds of metres of rope ready and bagged up for it, but what group is going to rig out 400m (or whatever it is) of traversing just to do a bit of horizontal via ferrata directly above easy walking passage? I suspect very few cavers have done it either.

 

[Ian P]

Quote from CNCC website

?Agreement with the Whelprigg Estate for access to caves of Casterton Fell.

Novice cavers are not permitted into the Easegill system.
The Easegill system is not to be used for training absolute novice cavers or for instructed (commercial) caving purposes.?

Ian