Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)

[Vern]

From memory there were metal ladders at the bottom of the entrance pitch of Lancaster Hole, Fall Pot, Stake Pot and Stop Pot. All placed there in the early stages of exploration of the system and certainly helped cavers on any through trip. So what's next, metal steps up into Gour Chamber of Bull Pot of The Witches, metal steps up the sometimes hairy climb up into Easter Grotto. The list goes on. I'm all for 'safety' but making life to easy for cavers is not in my opinion always acceptable. I would love to hear comments on this from the likes of Jim Newton, John Conway and Johnny Wilkinson.  :bow:

 

[tony from suffolk]

I find this a total abomination, why oh why do we need to fill caves with bolts p hangers fixed ladders and all the rest of this shit is totally beyond me,if you can't get down a cave without all this crap don't bother and find another sport, i was looking at some of the rigging guides the other day what a joke,p hangers all over the place deviations everywhere .total madness ,rant over .

So, a cautious approval vote then.

 

[Ian]

Where an area is inaccessible without the steps then I would support them. In this case we have been able to pre-rig the climb before doing a through trip for many years so I would argue that they are unnecessary.

 

[2xw]

What are the chances the installer is part of the "professional" caving community that wants to make caves safer and more accessible to all people that pay them?

I'd be interested to see the NE consents for this. The installer should be prosecuted.

 

[David Rose]

Whatever one thinks of this installation (and I, personally, am strongly against it) it appears to have been done unilaterally, with no attempt made to sound out opinion from the caving community or its representatives, such as the CNCC. Whoever did it could, at the very least, have posted something here and asked what people would think. Instead they just went ahead - sensing, I suspect correctly, that cavers' general opinions would have been very much opposed, if they had had the chance to express a view.

This far beyond P-bolts. This via ferrata is ugly, far more obtrusive, and removing it would cause considerable damage. And this in a very popular cave, part of the longest in Britain. Meanwhile, what if a rung did break while someone was using it? What would be the liability issues - and the possible implications for access?

To be frank, I think it's a scandal. There is a good case for removing the fixed aids in Wretched Rabbit, as was done some time ago in Lancaster Hole. We do not need new ones in County Pot - or, indeed, anywhere else where cavers have been conducting trips without them for many years.

If they haven't gone already, I do not give them long.

 

[Canary]

A great example of Poe's law. Well done to all involved. 

 

[MarkS]

1. The BCA & CNCC have done a lot of good work to find a balance between accessibility and conservation in setting up the anchor scheme: minimal impact on the cave with maximum safety. I think the majority of cavers find it a good approach. If someone thinks alternative aids should be pursued, get in touch with the relevant CNCC or BCA reps.

2. With no information (that I'm aware of) released by the installer, how does anyone know how safe they are? What are they fixed in place with? etc. etc.

3. It isn't a hard climb. There used to be an electron ladder on it, and it caught us by surprise on a trip with some relative novices when it was removed, but with a sling/short rope (and now with resin anchors) it's straightforward to free climb. If it is being done on the exit of a through trip then only one person needs to be able to reach the anchors.

4. You have to pre-rig the pitch in County anyway if you want to do a through trip. It's hardly that onerous to go a bit further and rig this climb if required. If a through trip is desired without needing to pre-rig this climb, just use the Manchester Bypass instead.

 

[andywebman]

We explored Wretched Rabbit upwards from the inside and all the climbs were free climbed easily from the bottom during the exploration in 1984 using combined tactics. The fixed aids have all been addded since. Most of the other climbs in Trident Series were explored in this way. No need for fixed aids like these. Anyone honest enough to own up to this?

 

[MJenkinson]

Whereabouts are these? Is it the pitch where you duck down under the wall to your left when facing the 10m drop into lower Trident?

If so the bit of tat at the top was more than suitable, if you are leading a group that would struggle (as me and a mate did) we climbed up first and rigged a ladder for the others.

You can't be comparing randomly installing via ferrata as the same as installing P bolts. I don't go around blasting small caves for fat lads to make my life easier, don't go rigging steps for people who can't climb.

 

[langcliffe]

Whereabouts are these? Is it the pitch where you duck down under the wall to your left when facing the 10m drop into lower Trident?

That's it.

 

[cap n chris]

It's dismal to read a caving equivalent of an episode of Grumpy Old Men/Women: how does this anti accessibility mindset square against the BCA Vision for increasing/improving the rapid cliff-edge demographic of the nation's caving? If making things less dangerous and more do-able for a modern generation who are physically less awesome than pioneers who routinely took calculated risks (nowadays highly inadvisable for anyone with a family) is going to elicit a knee-jerk reaction and a call to arms to purge caves of long overdue and needful fixed aids then perhaps BCA, and caving generally, deserves to die on its arse due to a lack of uptake from people who don't fancy exposing themselves to a real likelihood of life-changing injuries.

 

[MJenkinson]

Eh? It?s got bolts on it.. Go rig it. It doesn?t need steps.

 

[2xw]

It's dismal to read a caving equivalent of an episode of Grumpy Old Men/Women: how does this anti accessibility mindset square against the BCA Vision for increasing/improving the rapid cliff-edge demographic of the nation's caving? If making things less dangerous and more do-able for a modern generation who are physically less awesome than pioneers who routinely took calculated risks (nowadays highly inadvisable for anyone with a family) is going to elicit a knee-jerk reaction and a call to arms to purge caves of long overdue and needful fixed aids then perhaps BCA, and caving generally, deserves to die on its arse due to a lack of uptake from people who don't fancy exposing themselves to a real likelihood of life-changing injuries.

I kind of hope that is a joke and that I have just stupidly and embarrasingly fallen for it.

Because what a quite ridiculous opinion. The BCA is not there to provide you with an ever increasing range of caves that you can pitch to your customers.

The BCA represents cavers, and caving is and has never been about drastically altering the natural environment to remove any aspect of challenge. If every cave were a pleasant bimble what would the point of caving be? What a slogan the BCA could have:
"Try caving, or don't bother. It's not challenging and there's no personal development"

You would have us mine a sanitised, dull landscape that caters for the lowest common denominator. As far as I'm concerned, the very minimum should be added to make the cave barely safe. Bolts are acceptable but they should be very carefully thought about.

I suppose you'd also see Indian Face bolted and the Ben get a train on it. We could even remove rocks from every river to make it easier to take Groupon punters down?

 

[Speleotron]

It's dismal to read a caving equivalent of an episode of Grumpy Old Men/Women: how does this anti accessibility mindset square against the BCA Vision for increasing/improving the rapid cliff-edge demographic of the nation's caving? If making things less dangerous and more do-able for a modern generation who are physically less awesome than pioneers who routinely took calculated risks (nowadays highly inadvisable for anyone with a family) is going to elicit a knee-jerk reaction and a call to arms to purge caves of long overdue and needful fixed aids then perhaps BCA, and caving generally, deserves to die on its arse due to a lack of uptake from people who don't fancy exposing themselves to a real likelihood of life-changing injuries.

It's probably a lot more dangerous if randomers start putting home-made ironware onto climbs for the masses to trust!

 

[Inferus]

It's dismal to read a caving equivalent of an episode of Grumpy Old Men/Women: how does this anti accessibility mindset square against the BCA Vision for increasing/improving the rapid cliff-edge demographic of the nation's caving? If making things less dangerous and more do-able for a modern generation who are physically less awesome than pioneers who routinely took calculated risks (nowadays highly inadvisable for anyone with a family) is going to elicit a knee-jerk reaction and a call to arms to purge caves of long overdue and needful fixed aids then perhaps BCA, and caving generally, deserves to die on its arse due to a lack of uptake from people who don't fancy exposing themselves to a real likelihood of life-changing injuries.

Strange perspective from a caver, oh hang on, "professional caver".
Chris Binding, a professional caver in the Mendip Hills in Somerset, describes caving as "the next best thing to being on another planet" and a "sensory overload".
Being on another planet we wouldn't find over the top aids you quite clearly advocate..

 

[Fulk]

FFS, Chris. Do you even know what you are talking about? The pitch in question does not need via ferrata-style style fixed aids.

It's dismal to read a caving equivalent of an episode of Grumpy Old Men/Women: how does this anti accessibility mindset square against the BCA Vision for increasing/improving the rapid cliff-edge demographic of the nation's caving? If making things less dangerous and more do-able for a modern generation who are physically less awesome than pioneers who routinely took calculated risks (nowadays highly inadvisable for anyone with a family) is going to elicit a knee-jerk reaction and a call to arms to purge caves of long overdue and needful fixed aids then perhaps BCA, and caving generally, deserves to die on its arse due to a lack of uptake from people who don't fancy exposing themselves to a real likelihood of life-changing injuries.

Well it?s a damn sight more dismal to read this sort of shite from a so-called caver.

 

[cap n chris]

Ad hominem isn't unusual for this forum. When it comes to instructing caving, yes, BCA support the view that I do know what I'm talking about.

The pitch in question does not need via ferrata-style style fixed aids.

Someone obviously disagrees with this enough to have gone to the effort and cost of doing precisely that though. Differing opinions are not unusual within caving circles.

Here's an opinion I quite favour:

https://youtu.be/4SGsaYf2qB0?t=146

 

[tamarmole]

It's dismal to read a caving equivalent of an episode of Grumpy Old Men/Women: how does this anti accessibility mindset square against the BCA Vision for increasing/improving the rapid cliff-edge demographic of the nation's caving? If making things less dangerous and more do-able for a modern generation who are physically less awesome than pioneers who routinely took calculated risks (nowadays highly inadvisable for anyone with a family) is going to elicit a knee-jerk reaction and a call to arms to purge caves of long overdue and needful fixed aids then perhaps BCA, and caving generally, deserves to die on its arse due to a lack of uptake from people who don't fancy exposing themselves to a real likelihood of life-changing injuries.

"If you're not hard you shouldn't have come"

As a fat, middle aged man who was never much cop as a sporting caver I accepted early on that there are a lot of places that I will never see due to my lack of physical and technical ability.  This is my problem and not a problem with the cave.  As a mediocre sporting caver I would not expect the cave to be made mediocre to match my limited abilities. 

 

[caving_fox]

Contrast with the steps added to my favourite cave Craig A Fyynnon. There's a little bit of an awkward and exposed free climb that used to have a knotted rope on it. First on up would rig a ladder for the rest. Then there was a chain (Actually harder to use). Then a few years ago 5 discreet footplates were added (by the wardens). These are now so muddy you usually have to point them out to the rest of the group. They're only 2" deep but provide a useful support so that one person doesn't have to risk a potentially nasty fall. As far as I've heard there was no opposition at the time, and they're remained in place without the threat of anglegrinders.

So why are these any worse? Aesthetically and practically they're less good? There wasn't the support of the community beforehand? It's just different in Wales? Issues of 'certification' and checks?

It's difficult to balance the requirements for minimal intervention in a cave, safety, and access for "competent" cavers. There's a bell curve of caving ability, and also of caving challenges. It seems reasonable that only the most determined cavers should be able to pass the most difficult challenges, but the middle ground of how much aid to add for the average caver to pass a specific challenge is less clear - the general guidelines of the explorers made it this big / bolted this route /free climbed this, have prevailed so far. Should it remain so?

I don't have the answers!
Personally I don't like the look of these, but I'm sure I'd happily use them rather than faff about on a difficult climb.

 

[BradW]

We have had lots of views on why individuals don't want them or don't need them.

Do you know anybody who would find them useful and would otherwise not attempt to ascend this bit of the cave? If they wanted to go up there, would you take them with suitable safety protection, if the staples were really the only practical way for them to get up? Would you refuse to take them on principle?


What we really don't know are the particular circumstances of their installation beyond what Marysboy was told in the first post. It's easy to condemn someone or something when you only have your own perception of whether it's right or wrong.