Missed opportunities

[cap n chris]

Red tape never gets cut, despite what they promise. It's just a fact of life and will forever remain. JOBS DEPEND ON IT - the very jobs of the people who have the power to cut the red tape, but they AIN'T going to put themselves out of work are they?

 

[Ian Adams]

I wish that wasn't true Chris .... but it is 

 

[badger]

never going to get rid of red tape, it is with us in almost everything in life. the argument against crb, as stated it is only as good as the day its issued, but going with the argument against, that 4 leaders who been caving for 10 years  you could argue that 4 drivers driving without a license for 10 years could be and certainly in some cases better than someone who has just passed their driving test.  unfortunately the law says we have to have it, right or wrong people can argue for and against for next 10 years,
not sure why the group you took caving would not pay for your crb, but would say some one in that group was very shor t sighted as now is an activity that group of young people cant experience.
as for compentency of people leading groups, or even ordinary club cavers would say that there is a lot of people ( and not suggesting this anyone in particular) caving whose compency is not as good as they might think, and get away with near misses a lot. one only has to go to the top of swildons to see how bad some compedent cavers are. or a trip down bar pot taking a group of 18 year olds, 10 in the party and one leader who has srt'd underground before, all of these people could of course have been crb'd or even attended a course to certify there competence.
so suppose the arguement is the system foolproof, obviously not. would it be better to have no system?  whilst the present red tape, system has flaws unless or until someone can come up with something better then guess we will have to learn to work with the sytem

 

[Jon]

A quick note about the CRB replacement, the DBS. You can now pay a ?13 per year subscription fee which keeps your DBS updated and allows you to let employers look at your DBS online. This does cut out some of the bureaucracy as you now only need to fill out one DBS form and it then stays with you for life, in theory.

 

[graham]

Red tape never gets cut, despite what they promise. It's just a fact of life and will forever remain. JOBS DEPEND ON IT - the very jobs of the people who have the power to cut the red tape, but they AIN'T going to put themselves out of work are they?

It is not to do with maintaining jobs - though I do not deny that some few folk have made careers along the way - it is about arse-covering. To present badger's argument in a slightly different way, if you are the person who is deemed responsible by society for something, anything - but especially children, then you need not just to ensure that your charges are safe, you need to do so in such a way that when you are taken to court for negligence that you can demonstrate that in fact you did everything possible to ensure their safety and security.

This means that taking a value judgement that these four blokes who have caved together for ten years will be OK with the kids is not good enough especially when formal exercises such as crb checks and (dare I say it) CIC certification are available. The former approach can be challenged and may well lose. The latter is simply following recognised good practice and so it won't.

Now, I happen to know that the lovely and svelte Mr Binding who started this discussion is an extremely competent caver. He is also a CIC. Is it the latter that makes him such a good caver? No, it's years of practice, experience and a deep interest in the skills and equipment. Does that CIC, however make him the person to choose to herd your kids, yes, 'cos you will be seen to have done the right thing. It does not, however, make him a better caver, even a better SRT caver than a number of other individuals whom both of us know and have caved with.

Some will blame 'the lawyers' for all this. While one can be sure that legal practice has adapted to the situation, that is only really because it has had to. The underlying reason is the simple fact that whenever something goes wrong people do, sadly, always look at who is to blame. You get this in everything from child care issues to the situation with flooding in Cheddar Gorge last winter. In the latter, people were blaming everyone from Somerset Wildlife Trust to Gough's Cave management; the fact that it had, simply, been piss wet for months wasn't good enough. In legal cases I have heard lawyers despair of clients who maintain that they are only pursuing a case to ensure that 'things' are improved for the future so that nobody has to go through what they went through, but whose tone changes when they learn that they'll not get what they see as their rightful compensation if nobody is to be blamed. It's greed in their case, plain and simple.

Now, one of the statistics that everybody on here is vaguely aware of is that the BCA's PI insurance policy in its present guise has never had to make a payout. One of the reasons for this, I am sure, is the lack of under sixteens that it covers and the lack of 'professional' guides and instructors covered. For these reasons the 'blame game' is rarely played out in British caving. People may complain about the size of the premium that we pay, but believe me it is as nothing to what it would be if just one case like the poor lad at Manchester Hole, or an army instructed drowning at Porth yr Ogof was to have been covered by it. That's a route that we really don't want to go down.

 

[graham]

Somewhat pertinent to this thread is this article in the Guardian.

I quote:

Not so long ago, I walked from my parents' home to my old primary school, an establishment whose chief virtue ? its only virtue ? lay in the fact that it was set in vast playing fields and had wrap-around playgrounds (formerly with wooden barrels in which one could climb, but now with ? dread words ? "soft play areas"). No time for sweet nostalgia on this outing, though. I could not look through the windows at the hall, the kitchens, or the children's paintings on the wall. I could not even lie in the long grass at the edge of the playing fields and stare at the sky. A forbidding metal fence had been erected around the perimeter of the entire site, as if it were a prison.

I went home raging. Is there a sorrier sight than playing fields that are empty on a Saturday morning? They might as well build houses on them, and have done with it. According to my mother, the school had decided that the risk of a parent suing was just too great. Suing over what? I asked. "Oh, if some divorced dad wanders in and takes their child?" Thanks to this scenario ? convoluted, and vividly imagined, almost as if some staff were hoping for such Kramer vs Kramer excitements ? no child may make use of the school's facilities during the long summer holidays.

Tell me whose job depends on keeping a playing field empty over summer.

 

[Ian Adams]

I have read carefully what both Badger and Graham have written in support of the ?red tape?. I think I also understand what both are saying.

In the case of the UCET and the scouts, there are many members of the club who would volunteer (in advance) to ?help on the day? and, of course (as in all cases I am sure), not everyone would turn up ? although we always had plenty. So, who do the scouts do the CRB (DBS) on?  Notwithstanding how easy the process has been made to look, I just don?t think it is and I can see why the scouts would think ?sod this for a game of soldiers?. (This is rhetorical but I don?t know how I would go about getting a check on myself).

Add to that, we have a member who is in his early sixties and has been a very active caver since he was 17 ? he is still out every week and very active. We have another member who recently joined and took a course to become qualified (and now is). If I had a youngster who wanted to go caving I know which of those two people I would want to be with.

Can we really say that CRB checks have made any difference (the question has been asked by Les W already) ?

Can we also really say that using only qualified leaders has actually made any difference either ? (ie. is there a ?real? known drop in incidents since its introduction)

I understand about ?arse covering? and in the scenario above, the newly qualified person and the 50+ years experience bloke go caving together and when a problem arises it?s the newbie that gets tapped on the shoulder by the policeman.

Seriously ?



Ian

 

[Pitlamp]

A quick note about the CRB replacement, the DBS. You can now pay a ?13 per year subscription fee which keeps your DBS updated and allows you to let employers look at your DBS online. This does cut out some of the bureaucracy as you now only need to fill out one DBS form and it then stays with you for life, in theory.

Ah, so the idea of paying annually for the privilege of having to work for a living becomes the norm, eh?

So really what we're talking here is yet another tax.

My view is that if someone needs to check my suitability for a job that's fine - just don't ask ME to pay for it.

 

[badger]

I dont know who would pay if you went down the road of an annual fee to keep the new dbs uptodate, in most voluntry organisation that I know it is they that pay the cost under the old crb.

I am not neccessarily in favour of red tape, what I said is that is the system in place crb/dbs, is flawed but we have no choice to work with it.
Les has questioned whether it has stopped peodophiles, which I dont know, its an answer that we can never really answer, one we know people with crb still commit offense, and we dont know how many who apply for a crb come back  with something postive on it.

would a crb stop the likes of all the past incidents which are now coming to light

the blame culture, as sad as it is that is now the country/world today, a lot of covering your arse is common sense, and as using the  word again, its very sad that we now have think to the what if scenario and cover our arse, like making sure that a young person underground has a outer all in one on in case you have to grab the belt to stop them falling and if wearing top/bottom you might accidently touch skin, actions completely not sexual but in court,

So I do not like red tape, I do not like having to complete crb/dbs forms, I do not like every 3/5 years reapplying for my permit as a cave leader within scouting, or having to attend training course, I just accept that it something I have to do, I understand what the process is trying to do, I also know the system is not perfect
I believe that there should be systems in place but realise that said systems whether it is dbs or cave training do not necessarily get it right and if an individual/s want they will find ways round what ever is in place to commit wrong.
Do I believe we are soft when these people are found, yes.
now to go and find my dbs form to fill in.

Tony

 

[cap n chris]

Les has questioned whether it has stopped peodophiles, which I dont know, its an answer that we can never really answer

The legislation will not stop anything but simple logic dictates that it has definitely reduced the number of victims in the outdoor pursuits arena, e.g.: greater burdens of legislation results in fewer activities being available for children and therefore fewer children receive unwanted attention from opportunistic weirdos.

The way to protect children is to stop them (directly or indirectly) from doing anything outside their own home.

 

[Pitlamp]

The problem is that the government treats us all as if everyone has zero integrity.

Back on topic though, I still think it's best if clubs continue to deal with this sort of thing. One club of which I'm member organises family weekends 2 or 3 times a year at our hostel. The youngsters get a chance to develop their caving skills, adults who have inevitably been drawn away from the club by the responsibilities of becoming parents are kept very much involved - and our next generation of tigers is being readied for finding all that undiscovered passage in the Dales. Best of all, many other members who aren't involved with bringing up a family actually find these weekends great fun! It works really well; maybe it's worth other clubs thinking about such events?

 

[graham]

Can we really say that CRB checks have made any difference (the question has been asked by Les W already) ?

No we cannot as the situation is an evolving one, it is difficult if not impossible to compare like with like.

Can we also really say that using only qualified leaders has actually made any difference either ? (ie. is there a ?real? known drop in incidents since its introduction)

There is, I believe, a significant reduction in incidents as recorded by the BCRC over the years, but I doubt whether anyone has done sufficiently detailed analysis to even attempt to draw together cause and effect.

 

[graham]

The problem is that the government treats us all as if everyone has zero integrity.

That's 'cos they have.

 

[kay]

Now, I happen to know that the lovely and svelte Mr Binding who started this discussion is an extremely competent caver. He is also a CIC. Is it the latter that makes him such a good caver? No, it's years of practice, experience and a deep interest in the skills and equipment. Does that CIC, however make him the person to choose to herd your kids, yes, 'cos you will be seen to have done the right thing. It does not, however, make him a better caver, even a better SRT caver than a number of other individuals whom both of us know and have caved with.

It's not to do with arse covering or red tape. It's because we are much more mobile society where people don't know each other. Imagine me as the parent of a child who has expressed a desire to cave. I don't know anyone who caves. So how do I know that the person who is offering to take my child on his/her caving trip is a responsible person who understands the dangers of caving and will make sure my child has a good time and is not unnecessarily discouraged from ever caving again? Do I go on to a forum and find that a lot of people who I've never met feel that "the lovely and svelte Mr Binding who started this discussion is an extremely competent caver"? Or do I look for some sort of certification from a supposedly competent body?

How do you choose a plumber?  You talk to your friends and neighbours who have recently used a plumber. But if none of them have, do you pick at random? Or do you try someone who is accredited but the relevant body?

It's easy as an insider to know the good people and the people with the qualifications but not the real experience. But if you want to bring in new people, you need some way of helping people with no knowledge whatsoever of caves or caving to choose a good route into caving for themselves or for their children. IF CIC isn't guaranteeing that the person holding it is a good enough caver to introduce people to caving, then improve CIC.

 

[JasonC]

1. We can all moan about red tape, lawyers and the modern blame culture, but these things are (sad) facts of life which moaning won't remove.

2. I think this is a fine and constructive suggestion...

Back on topic though, I still think it's best if clubs continue to deal with this sort of thing. One club of which I'm member organises family weekends 2 or 3 times a year at our hostel. The youngsters get a chance to develop their caving skills, adults who have inevitably been drawn away from the club by the responsibilities of becoming parents are kept very much involved - and our next generation of tigers is being readied for finding all that undiscovered passage in the Dales. Best of all, many other members who aren't involved with bringing up a family actually find these weekends great fun! It works really well; maybe it's worth other clubs thinking about such events?

... this sort of chimes with how I (long ago) got into caving.  The (young) Scout master was a caver and offered to take some of us (14-15 yos).  There's no way my parents would have joined us, but to answer their natural concerns, the SM came and had a chat with them - they knew he'd taken as camping, so they trusted him and let me go.

So maybe it's about establishing a personal relationship of trust between clubs, teenagers and their parents - ideally taking families underground as Pitlamp suggests.  This doesn't make the red tape go away entirely, but maybe it makes its use vanishingly unlikely?

 

[Ian Adams]

The scouts approach "a club", the "club" knows the experience and competency of its members and can judge accordingly. (and, in our case, have done so for a number years without incident).  No paperwork, no certificates, no hassle and no nonsense.

I know a recently qualified instructer who made a schoolboy error on an SRT training exercise (recently) and his error was (imo) due a lack of experience.

He has a piece of paper saying he is competent.

Experience trumps paper in my book.

Why is it so necessary to micro-manage everything.  Has sight been lost of the fact that the scouts in North Wales are no longer able to go caving because of this red-tape ?

As Chris pointed out - leave them in the safety of their own home - because that is exactly where they are in North Wales 

Ian

 

[TheBitterEnd]

Whilst it's sometimes nice and cathartic to have a rant about red-tape, it does not totally prevent the caving community from organizing, in a proper, safe way what ever it wants to do by way of encouraging people of all ages into the sport.

I just wonder how many people contributing to this debate
a) have kids?
b) have encouraged their kids to take up caving, beyond the usual tourist trips?
c) have tried to get other people's kids interested in the sport?

I have heard some fairly unpleasant comments from experienced cavers in relation to kids on club trips and most clubs seem to manage only one "family" caving day per year. It's all too easy to blame the gub'ment, may be we need to start closer to home?

 

[Ian Adams]

Whilst it's sometimes nice and cathartic to have a rant about red-tape, it does not totally prevent the caving community from organizing, in a proper, safe way

Is it really any safer ?  And, if it is, is it really that much safer than we all have to jump through so many hoops ?

I just wonder how many people contributing to this debate
a) have kids?

Yes.

b) have encouraged their kids to take up caving, beyond the usual tourist trips?

Yes.

c) have tried to get other people's kids interested in the sport?

No. I have not been CRB (DBS) checked and I am not going to approach children for fear of being labelled something horrible.

... Did I mention the North Wales scouts no longer go caving because the club has not been CRB checked and/or the scout masters are not qualified ?

Safest way .... leave the kids at home 

Ian

 

[Blakethwaite]

Safest way .... leave the kids at home 

Cor blimey.
Anybody reading this forum for the first time would think its impossible to get underground in this country which is plainly a right load of old cobblers.

I live near a football club which always has three junior matches going on at any one time. People involved in the club are CRB checked. They also have or are working towards coaching qualifications.

Why can mere footballers manage with this red tape - and I refer to the utter load of arse spouted on another thread - but not the allegedly intellectual superior caste that is cavers?

 

[underground]

I just wonder how many people contributing to this debate
a) have kids?
b) have encouraged their kids to take up caving, beyond the usual tourist trips?
c) have tried to get other people's kids interested in the sport?

Yes, yes and yes