Missed opportunities

[SpeleoTrog]

The "fault" is not with the caving system. It could be argued that it is with the scouts. The "fault" is that they have not had all our members CRB(DBS) checked nor have they got a qualified scout leader.

Until recently, they didn't need to and there were never any problems.

Common Sense left the building on this one 

Ian

The increase in legislation relating to adventurous activities providers can be traced directly back to Lyme Bay - http://www.aals.org.uk/lymebay01.html
It's unfair to place the fault (if any) with the Scouts or with Cavers. It's a national problem affecting lots of groups and lots of activities. For example, prior to the Lyme Bay disaster and the subsequent licencing of adventurous activities it was not unusual for a Scout leader to be "qualified" to take kids canoeing purely by having the only vehicle available with a towbar to get the canoe trailer where it needed to be.
You could argue that it's a shame that it's now harder for kids to get into these activities but if the tightened legislation has resulted in fewer young people dying then it has to be a benefit in the long run.

On the subject of Scouts caving - the regulation basically means that Scouts have a choice of 2 routes into caving
    1) They pay for a commercially led trip (A CRB'd Scout adult would still have to accompany them)
    2) A Scout leader can become an Adventurous Activity Permit Holder

Both require a Scout leader to be at least interested in caving. Given that caving is still a minority sport, it's always going to be more difficult to recruit a cave leader than a football coach!
Perhaps one way of encouraging young people into the sport could be to target youth group leaders directly?

(incidentally, the Scout Caving situation in Wales is moving forwards. Having recently (2 days ago) acquired my Scout Cave Leaders permit, I now represent 50% of the Cave leaders in the Cardiff and Vale of Glamorgan Scouting area. There's now a budget discussion starting about funding kit before we can actually get underground with the kids. Once this happens, I expect that other leaders and parent/helpers will become interested (as they have in other areas) and the sport gain popularity in the area.

 

[estelle]

There is no doubt the Lyme Bay incident changed outdoor activities provision dramatically.
Until just before then, i helped out with a voluntary youth activities group, of which we had a reasonable number of qualified instructors in canoeing, climbing, caving and archery and enough equipment to take around a dozen kids on any of those activities at once and those kids came from youth clubs, sea and air cadets. (we didn't generally take scouts as they mostly had their own provisions back then)
After Lyme Bay incident public liability insurance went through the roof and higher demands on numbers of instructors and qualifications from local authorities just made it impossible for that group to carry on as the funding was from the small amount charged to take the kids and us doing fund-raising at local fairs and events and donations. We found that instructor course qualifications became more expensive as well which the group couldn't fund and most of us couldn't fund ourselves so we had no choice but to fold the group soon after the incident, which was a great loss to the local community as i can think of at least 1/2 dozen people still caving who originated from that group 20+ years ago and more and i for one, am not sure if i'd have found caving without it.

You could argue that it's a shame that it's now harder for kids to get into these activities but if the tightened legislation has resulted in fewer young people dying then it has to be a benefit in the long run.

I have to agree this has had a major impact, but i do think the greater increase in media items about child 'abuses' in more recent times and how many trusted teachers, scout leaders, youth workers, vicars, priests, etc. who are entrusted with children as part of their jobs have been convicted of child abuse plus requirements for 'admin' - CRB checks, etc., and a 'blame culture' that doesn't accept that accidents can and do happen and immediately look for someone to sue, i actually think many adults have got to a point where they are scared to have anything to do with children (particularly anyone else's kids) just in case something goes wrong or gets taken the wrong way and to that end, will not want to raise their heads above the parapet and risk them being shot off by offering to help with minors!

 

[PaulW]

JessopSmythe you have PM

 

[ian.p]

As has been mentioned before it is not a legal requirement for anyone to hold an NGB qualification to take children caving and no requirement to have had CRB checks unless you are taking sole responsibility for a group of children. This actually leaves a lot of room for common sense especially for amateur groups run by volunteers.

For example in EECC (education in the environment caving club) a number of our cave leaders have done the LCLA course so that we as a club are aware of currant good practice and know what we should be doing but this is by no means all of our leaders we operate very much on a basis of experienced cave leaders assessing the ability of new leaders and deciding what trips they are suitable to lead. It places a fair degree of responsibility on the experienced leaders but because we make sensible judgements its not an issue as we wont be doing anything negligent and because we think about what we are doing we can always justify our actions if we were ever called to answer our case in court. This also means we can and do go to a wide variety of caves and run some really quite advanced trips I have just spent several days trying (and failing) to keep up with a group of 16-17 year olds doing trips like Swildons short round and east waters 13 pots. We train our kids up to take on leadership responsibility's meaning that in any group there will be two adults and then several 15-17 year olds who are themselves quite capable of acting as cave leaders and can back the adults up if anything starts to go sideways and then a few smalls which the whole group looks after. This is a far safer environment then most commercial cavers are able to operate under and I don't lie awake at night fearing what id say to a jury because I know everything we do is justified by common sense not just a piece of paper. 
Our insurance is through BCA and as such is the same as for any other caving club.
DBS checks are not required for volunteer organisations especially if you are not solely responsible for the group of children and certainly not if the activity is non residential. A sensible policy document and common sense applied in the present is a far better safe guard for children than DBS checks anyway as by relying on these you can judge the situation as it is not as it ought to be.