TheBitterEnd
Well-known member
Jackalpup said:
See there you go, propagating urban myths and making up your own rules. You DO NOT NEED to be CRB checked to take your children's friends caving.
Missed opportunities
- Thread starter cap n chris
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See there you go, propagating urban myths and making up your own rules. You DO NOT NEED to be CRB checked to take your children's friends caving.
kay
Well-known member
Jackalpup said:
So ... my 12 year old daughter fancies having a go at caving. She isn't in the Scouts, in fact she isn't a "club" type of person and doesn't belong to any group that might take her caving. I know nothing about caving - I don't know whether any club I approach really has the set-up to take her caving, or the self-knowledge to say "we're not the best club to do this - why not approach XXX?"
What do I do?
Ian Adams
Active member
You just got to love people haven?t you 
Bitterend .... firstly, I raised the issue of the scouts in North Wales not being able to go caving (not friends children). I have been with many under 18?s who are the children of friends and club members. What I said was ?I am not going to approach children ....? or, to put it better ?I am not going to hold a sign over my head inviting children to come caving with me?.
Kay ... what would you have done before the red tape was introduced ?
I find it absolutely amazing that some people are sidestepping the actual points raised.
How many incidents of kiddy-fiddling were there in caving before CRB checks ? How many incidents (let?s say serious ones) were there before the need for ?qualified? leaders ? And, more specifically, by how much have those incidents abated because of it ?
Common sense and experience still trump red-tape in my book.
Ian
Bitterend .... firstly, I raised the issue of the scouts in North Wales not being able to go caving (not friends children). I have been with many under 18?s who are the children of friends and club members. What I said was ?I am not going to approach children ....? or, to put it better ?I am not going to hold a sign over my head inviting children to come caving with me?.
Kay ... what would you have done before the red tape was introduced ?
I find it absolutely amazing that some people are sidestepping the actual points raised.
How many incidents of kiddy-fiddling were there in caving before CRB checks ? How many incidents (let?s say serious ones) were there before the need for ?qualified? leaders ? And, more specifically, by how much have those incidents abated because of it ?
Common sense and experience still trump red-tape in my book.
Ian
kay
Well-known member
Jackalpup said:
Found life more difficult.
I was addressing the more general question of competence rather than the specific question of paedophilia. What you call "common sense" is basically knowledge and experience. If you have no knowledge of an area, you have no way of assessing which person is competent and which isn't. And if you don't know anyone who has the knowledge and experience and can advise you, then you're stuck with some accreditation process.
Therefore, if you want to attract young cavers, you can either sort out an accreditation process which people can have confidence in. Or you can limit your pool of future cavers to the sons, daughters and friends of existing cavers, plus a few naive souls who are willing to trust their children to a complete stranger.
Blakethwaite
New member
Jackalpup said:You just got to love people haven?t you
Bitterend .... firstly, I raised the issue of the scouts in North Wales not being able to go caving (not friends children). I have been with many under 18?s who are the children of friends and club members. What I said was ?I am not going to approach children ....? or, to put it better ?I am not going to hold a sign over my head inviting children to come caving with me?.
Kay ... what would you have done before the red tape was introduced ?
I find it absolutely amazing that some people are sidestepping the actual points raised.
How many incidents of kiddy-fiddling were there in caving before CRB checks ? How many incidents (let?s say serious ones) were there before the need for ?qualified? leaders ? And, more specifically, by how much have those incidents abated because of it ?
Common sense and experience still trump red-tape in my book.
Ian
Is there a chance that you're just looking at this from your own side of the fence Ian? Whilst you might know and trust Tom, Dick & Harry from your club (though probably only for the few years you've shared a club and then only partially) the mothers and fathers won't know them from Adam & there's a reasonable chance they won't be the slightest bit happy that the scout leader is sending their children off with adults with who no attempt has been made to verify their past or abilities. I certainly wouldn't be.
CRB checks & certification are fairly commonplace nowadays, loads of people have them done without fuss & its not going to go away.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
graham said:
Ah - now I understand. I honestly think that most people entering British politics do so with the best of motives. For some reason (possibly connected with a well known saying by JFK) things soon seem to deteriorate in many cases. Thank goodness the nation still has the power to vote them out, if they're bad enough. The sad thing is that a large proportion of the population just soaks it up and never get near to doing anything about it.
I suspect you and I often think along similar lines Graham.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Jackalpup said:
Quite a shocking amount actually, from what I've been told.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Chris, I never witnessed it in all the years I was caving before the CRB thing got inflicted on us (either as a very active child caver or as an adult caver).
Mind you I'm prepared to accept that others might have. But it's not especially helpful just saying "from what I've been told" - really to convince us of this point there would need to be some robust comparative statistics.
Mind you I'm prepared to accept that others might have. But it's not especially helpful just saying "from what I've been told" - really to convince us of this point there would need to be some robust comparative statistics.
Peter Burgess
New member
I suspect Chris is right. I am sure that many of those who may have been suspected of abusing children were just the victims of nasty rumours, but for every one of those there is likely to have been someone else who really was a nasty piece of work. But that's the problem with this issue, as witnessed by recent high profile cases. These guys are very clever and devious, and unless a proper investigation is done, most will probably be consigned to the dustbin of suspicion and unsubstantiated rumour. Which leaves us with a simple choice, do we put in place some accountability to minimise the chance of a paedophile setting up a young person's caving club, or simply say because nothing was ever proven, we should not be concerned? I prefer the accountability and scrutiny, thank you very much. The effects of child abuse do not last for an hour or two, they endure for a lifetime.Cap'n Chris said:
Ian Adams
Active member
Blakethwaite ? I do take your point and I accept it isn?t just going to go away. I also know it is commonplace.
All I was (am) saying is that there is a detriment to the red-tape (as well as all the ?pros? that are being shouted out) and, the issue I have highlighted is the fact that a scouting group here no longer caves because of it. So I am not just looking at it from my side of the fence, I know of at least the scouts who are losing out. How many others lose out because of it ?
Furthermore, I have given a true example of a certified leader making a schoolboy error (got hung up on a rope) which demonstrated (to me at least) that the existence of a piece of paper is not the ?be all and end all?.
And, no one can say that all these measures have made a marked difference (that?s rhetorical).
Peter,
Seriously ?
You honestly believe that child abuse existed in caving before CRB checks ?
Do you honestly believe that if we don?t rigidly check everyone out every time then child abuse is likely to occur ?
(that?s not rhetorical)
Ian
All I was (am) saying is that there is a detriment to the red-tape (as well as all the ?pros? that are being shouted out) and, the issue I have highlighted is the fact that a scouting group here no longer caves because of it. So I am not just looking at it from my side of the fence, I know of at least the scouts who are losing out. How many others lose out because of it ?
Furthermore, I have given a true example of a certified leader making a schoolboy error (got hung up on a rope) which demonstrated (to me at least) that the existence of a piece of paper is not the ?be all and end all?.
And, no one can say that all these measures have made a marked difference (that?s rhetorical).
Peter,
Seriously ?
You honestly believe that child abuse existed in caving before CRB checks ?
Do you honestly believe that if we don?t rigidly check everyone out every time then child abuse is likely to occur ?
(that?s not rhetorical)
Ian
cap n chris
Well-known member
Pitlamp said:
I doubt it's possible to get robust comparative stats, Pitlamp. Also, continuing this thread in this vein is potentially drifting into the realms of libel etc.
Any chance of getting back to the Original Subject?.... Feel free to start another thread if this twist to a sinister side needs further elucidation.
Peter Burgess
New member
Yes I do, and I've been caving since the late 70s, and am aware of at least three people that I have known of whom rumours have been put about (none substantiated and none of which I have any evidence of). We used to joke about it in the 80s - we wouldn't nowadays, and quite rightly. No, it won't have gone away just because of CRB, but like other nasties in life, the few spoil it for the many because the many would prefer the few to be discouraged by scrutiny from perpetrating their selfish ways on the rest of society. Road deaths have not been eliminated by regulation but I sure am glad that measures enforced on us all have made the roads so much safer. But then I am sure many people would prefer not have to obey speed limits or to drive responsibly.
As for No CRB (or whatever) equates to a rise in abuse, you bet it will. These people are cowards and any hint they are being scrutinised is enough to put many of them off the idea.
Would you let a child of yours join the "XYZ young adventures club" run by one man, purely on how plausible and friendly he comes over to you? Purely on how good a caver and leader he is? Surely you would want to know above and beyond anything else that he is an upright and impeccably well-behaved and respectful citizen. How do you determine that?
To suggest that child protection issues are nothing to do with this subject is ignoring an important issue, that is actually quite central alongside other important issues as to why youngsters are not going caving.
As for No CRB (or whatever) equates to a rise in abuse, you bet it will. These people are cowards and any hint they are being scrutinised is enough to put many of them off the idea.
Would you let a child of yours join the "XYZ young adventures club" run by one man, purely on how plausible and friendly he comes over to you? Purely on how good a caver and leader he is? Surely you would want to know above and beyond anything else that he is an upright and impeccably well-behaved and respectful citizen. How do you determine that?
To suggest that child protection issues are nothing to do with this subject is ignoring an important issue, that is actually quite central alongside other important issues as to why youngsters are not going caving.
Peter Burgess
New member
Persistent and oft repeated rumours. Don't dismiss what many people have been half aware of over the years. As I said, the few nasty people spoil it for the rest. It's a horrible situation as nobody wants to be seen dismissing the risk as not worthy of regulation. Just because you were not the subject of abuse does not mean that nobody else has been. And even if its a tiny percentage of youngsters, the issue has to be addressed by a responsible society. An hour or so of abuse can scar someone for life.
For the record, our club has a Minors Policy, which means that there are some circumstances in which we can take u18s caving, but they are limited. I hope this last comment is seen as an attempt to go back towards topic a tad.
For the record, our club has a Minors Policy, which means that there are some circumstances in which we can take u18s caving, but they are limited. I hope this last comment is seen as an attempt to go back towards topic a tad.
badger
Active member
think we must also remember it might not be something which happens in caving, or has happened in caving, that the systems of checks have been put in place.
any situation which happens with young people regardless to what/where could have a knock on effect.
experience over qualification, the big problem with experience is that if the person does not recognise or move with new thinking/practices and equipment, the potential of danger could be very high, because for 30 years we have always done it this way does not make it right.
I also know people who I think are very good cavers, would not say they make particularly good leaders. I know people who I consider good leaders, their caving abilty is ok.
any situation which happens with young people regardless to what/where could have a knock on effect.
experience over qualification, the big problem with experience is that if the person does not recognise or move with new thinking/practices and equipment, the potential of danger could be very high, because for 30 years we have always done it this way does not make it right.
I also know people who I think are very good cavers, would not say they make particularly good leaders. I know people who I consider good leaders, their caving abilty is ok.
Rachel
Active member
I'm totally and utterly bemused by this thread, as is the 13 year old caver sat next to me.
Her route into caving was quite simple - join a club as a junior member and go caving.
So long as a parent (or someone the parent has delegated responsibility to) is on the trip, there is no need to worry about CRB/DBS checks.
The only thing I've ever had to worry about is the fact that she can prussik way faster than I can.
Her route into caving was quite simple - join a club as a junior member and go caving.
So long as a parent (or someone the parent has delegated responsibility to) is on the trip, there is no need to worry about CRB/DBS checks.
The only thing I've ever had to worry about is the fact that she can prussik way faster than I can.
