Missed opportunities
- Thread starter cap n chris
- Start date
graham
New member
Ian Adams
Active member
The "fault" is not with the caving system. It could be argued that it is with the scouts. The "fault" is that they have not had all our members CRB(DBS) checked nor have they got a qualified scout leader.
Until recently, they didn't need to and there were never any problems.
Common Sense left the building on this one
Ian
Until recently, they didn't need to and there were never any problems.
Common Sense left the building on this one
Ian
darren
Member
Jackalpup said:Rachel .... that is exactly what my club does
and, no CRB/DBS/CIC/red-tape or otherwise.
Ian
PS. it's a shame the scouts can't come caving
Ian, why don't you offer to take any scouts who want to go caving, underground on a personal basis outside the scout movement. If you could get a couple of other cavers to help you could even take a group of scouts underground outside of the scouting movement.
glyders
Member
There is currently no legal requirement to hold any qualification before leading a group in an outdoor activity like caving, walking or climbing. However there do exist qualifications for doing so. These act to allow those who don't know anything about the activity themselves to be able to make informed decisions about who is competent to lead a group. They are also, of course, mandated in many organisations' safety rules.
They are not difficult to acquire for someone who is competent and active in their chosen activity. In the case of caving there are even bursaries for club members to get them so there is not much of a financial obstacle either.
I would be happy for my children to go caving with anyone I felt was up to the job. But then I know what that means. If they wanted to go scuba diving I would be relying on BSAC or PADI qualifications to indicate who should know what they were doing.
As for DBS (CRB as was) it is just something one has to accept in commercial areas. I have four current ones (school, MOD, Wildlife Watch and DofE) as they are no longer transferable. Of course just because someone passes it doesn't mean they are safe. On the other hand if they don't then they are barred.
I would expect that if I were sending my children on a commercial course that the instructors would all be checked. I would not expect the same for them going on a club activity. After all, that is like them going round a friend's house - are the parents/older siblings checked? Having said that I do know of cases where children were abused in outdoor activity clubs (not caving as it happens) so I can understand why people would want things tightening up.
And by the way, I do run a caver development programme in my school. The main limit is actually the huge range of other commitments that pupils have in their schedules - academic, sporting, music etc. I have also worked on national courses for cadets where we spend a week in the Dales developing caving skills.
They are not difficult to acquire for someone who is competent and active in their chosen activity. In the case of caving there are even bursaries for club members to get them so there is not much of a financial obstacle either.
I would be happy for my children to go caving with anyone I felt was up to the job. But then I know what that means. If they wanted to go scuba diving I would be relying on BSAC or PADI qualifications to indicate who should know what they were doing.
As for DBS (CRB as was) it is just something one has to accept in commercial areas. I have four current ones (school, MOD, Wildlife Watch and DofE) as they are no longer transferable. Of course just because someone passes it doesn't mean they are safe. On the other hand if they don't then they are barred.
I would expect that if I were sending my children on a commercial course that the instructors would all be checked. I would not expect the same for them going on a club activity. After all, that is like them going round a friend's house - are the parents/older siblings checked? Having said that I do know of cases where children were abused in outdoor activity clubs (not caving as it happens) so I can understand why people would want things tightening up.
And by the way, I do run a caver development programme in my school. The main limit is actually the huge range of other commitments that pupils have in their schedules - academic, sporting, music etc. I have also worked on national courses for cadets where we spend a week in the Dales developing caving skills.
TheBitterEnd
Well-known member
glyders said:
Exactly that. When I was a kid I did loads of extra-curricula stuff and my kids do too. There may be a handful of kids who get really focused on caving in their teens but most are going to try loads of things and start to focus as they leave school or later in life.
TheBitterEnd
Well-known member
I was just stuck by the notion that this discussion is very much a bunch of cavers trying to figure out why others don't go caving. A bit like asking an arachnophile why more people don't own tarantulas.
I just did a bit of market research. My kids are ambivalent; they would go caving but not be too bothered if they never caved again, their key issue is the cold but also just have very different interests. Of around 20 colleagues more than 50% would try it once (they did, I took them) but not be bothered about doing it again, 1 may well take it up more regularly if he didn't have plenty of other things to do. And of the others reaction ranged from a dislike to cold/wet/mud/confined spaces to abject revulsion approaching "I'd rather stick a tarantula down my kecks"
I just did a bit of market research. My kids are ambivalent; they would go caving but not be too bothered if they never caved again, their key issue is the cold but also just have very different interests. Of around 20 colleagues more than 50% would try it once (they did, I took them) but not be bothered about doing it again, 1 may well take it up more regularly if he didn't have plenty of other things to do. And of the others reaction ranged from a dislike to cold/wet/mud/confined spaces to abject revulsion approaching "I'd rather stick a tarantula down my kecks"
Ian Adams
Active member
darren said:
It's the scouts what were asking for the trip(s) to gain their caving badge. They scouts asked the club (not me) and the club asked for volunteers (of which I was one). I was happy to be involved in as such but what you are suggesting is fundamentally different. (presumably I would still need a CRB/DBS check as will any others with me).
The point I have been making is that, as a result of the red-tape, some under 18's no longer go caving.
Instead of being underground with the scouts, I have been wandering around in the mountains with my wife and friends (which I enjoy) so it is no skin off my nose at all - I was simply suggesting it was a shame for the scouts
Chris originally suggested we could do more for the under 18's (and I agree), I was simply pointing out that the current rules and regulations are not helping to make life easy and, on the contrary, have had (at least in part) a negative impact.
Ian
bograt
Active member
Jackalpup said:
I feel some clarification is needed here, a CRB check is only needed if you are in sole charge of the group, if a scout leader with the check accompanies the trip, you don't need one, if the group asks you to take sole charge, it is up to them to arrange and pay for the check to be carried out on your behalf, many clubs have LCML certified members, this is usually sufficient Qualification to supervise a group to achieve a scout caving badge.
In short, a CRB cleared person is "in charge" of the the group, an experienced ( or qualified, or both!) caver "supervises" and signs off the badge.
I have signed off many badges and modules over the years, I have two CRB's, one from the LEA, and one from the Guides, both paid for by the respective bodies, both, alas over 3 years old so out of date, but then again, I don't do it any more.
Ian Adams
Active member
Bograt,
Sorry, I don't know.
It is entirely possible that the scout leaders were CRB checked but not cave qualified (and could not, therefore, be "in charge") ... all I can say is they no longer go caving in North Wales. And, from Graham's helpful link on the exact matter, it is clear they do still go caving in some areas of the UK where, presumably, the scouts have managed to comply with whatever it is they need to comply with.
Ian
Sorry, I don't know.
It is entirely possible that the scout leaders were CRB checked but not cave qualified (and could not, therefore, be "in charge") ... all I can say is they no longer go caving in North Wales. And, from Graham's helpful link on the exact matter, it is clear they do still go caving in some areas of the UK where, presumably, the scouts have managed to comply with whatever it is they need to comply with.
Ian
bograt
Active member
Jackalpup said:
Sorry, should have been clearer, "In Charge" means trusted with the safekeeping of the group, in this case it would also mean deputising supervision to someone who was more familiar with the environment they were in i.e. the cave leader.
I recall a few trips I supervised with T.A. cadets, the Corporal, who was as much a novice as the rest, was "in charge", but I supervised them all ( took a lot of effort to stop them calling me Sir)
The point is the person "in charge" does not have to be the cave savvy person or the leader, the word is delegation.
Compliance is interpreted by the local heirarchy of the Scout movement and I think this is where your local problems arise.
badger
Active member
the crb check is not something the scouts have put in place, but something placed on them government.
the scouts had a system in place before the crb came into place, where individuals history was searched, and checked. so it is not new.
as long as someone in the group is crb, they can take responsibilty for the group, however if it came to court and the cave leader was not crb but relied on a leader/parent or a nominated person in the group I think you could find yourself not in a very good position.
the thread was about how we get young people caving, to simply put down having to jump through hoops due to red tape is the main problem I think is deflecting the real issue. it takes 10 minutes to fill in the DBS, There is plenty of areas in the UK which have scout caving teams, anyone attending hidden earth and taking time to check out the scout stand would see it is very active and varied. the biggest issue for not being able to take more scouts caving for the area I am involved in is time and distance
the issue with scouts is a perceived image from the caving community of the standard of caving. mainly poor. again if people had seen the scouts stand at HE they might be quite surprised not only to the level of caving but the quality. There is many issues in scout caving and probably any organisation where young people are involved and the biggest problem is with adults, time, distance work. These are the same issues that actually effect many organisations working with young people, and not just unique to caving. Its to simple to just to blame it on crb and red tape
the scouts had a system in place before the crb came into place, where individuals history was searched, and checked. so it is not new.
as long as someone in the group is crb, they can take responsibilty for the group, however if it came to court and the cave leader was not crb but relied on a leader/parent or a nominated person in the group I think you could find yourself not in a very good position.
the thread was about how we get young people caving, to simply put down having to jump through hoops due to red tape is the main problem I think is deflecting the real issue. it takes 10 minutes to fill in the DBS, There is plenty of areas in the UK which have scout caving teams, anyone attending hidden earth and taking time to check out the scout stand would see it is very active and varied. the biggest issue for not being able to take more scouts caving for the area I am involved in is time and distance
the issue with scouts is a perceived image from the caving community of the standard of caving. mainly poor. again if people had seen the scouts stand at HE they might be quite surprised not only to the level of caving but the quality. There is many issues in scout caving and probably any organisation where young people are involved and the biggest problem is with adults, time, distance work. These are the same issues that actually effect many organisations working with young people, and not just unique to caving. Its to simple to just to blame it on crb and red tape
Peter Burgess
New member
I wonder if some have this perception that scout caving is simply an adult scout leader taking a load of scouts underground, when in reality scouts are scouts for life and there are many adult scout cavers, who devote a lot of their time helping the younger scouts into the sport. Not so different from a keen caving club encouraging youngsters to join them.
badger
Active member
I would say the girl scouts we take tend to be better than the males at the scout age, unless it has changed, and when I we looked into taking guides caving, we where told by guide HQ that the guides do not have any guidelines so they would adopt the same rules as the scout association. so our team would be prepared to take guides underground. unfortunately only having a permit under the scout association I do not know how or if I was able to take school or other youth organisations underground. I have taken friends children underground on the odd occasion.