More questions on Bradwell Catchment

[SamT]

According to the barmaster map I have - Long rake goes into Nether Long Rake (via a dotted line) On to Bird, Pack of Meal/Lingtard and on to Nunlow end and hence the sough. (rather than krondstat sough.

But as I say - the only way to know is to do some very targeted dye testing.

I've asked John Gunn in the past for details (well - main results) of the work done, but I've never got very far with getting the details out of him. Maybe time to ask again. I was at his lecture in Litton a few years ago when he had the map of where dye was put in and where it came out but dont have  a copy myself. (lots and lots of arrows!!)

 

[pwhole]

It would be nice to be able to draw up a 'hydro-model' of the system, in a similar way to the Survex model, but showing water-routes through tracing, rather than known passage. John's 'flow-chart', published in Cave Science in 1991, though a schematic, is a great start, but using actual geographic locations would really begin to build up a useful model. Comparing the two sets might then enable the 'missing links' to be more easily identified. We're hoping to get some done further west at some point soon too, so there could be a lot of data to sift in a year or so. Trouble is with Long Rake, will we ever get permission to put dye down there? It's looking unlikely.

Whether Moss Rake water 'crosses over' the moor to run out of the Nunlow soughs is a big question - it's more likely in my mind to be Bagshaw owing to volumes. If a Moss Rake streamway does exist, it must be deep, but then Speedwell's a good 180m below the surface at Rowter.

 

[AR]

If/when a date is fixed it'd be worth inviting John Gunn, now he's living nearer the Peak District he may well be able to attend.  Just spotted something else on the Barmasters 6" map, on the eastwards extenstion of the Hartle Dale vein there's the "Water Shaft" title, over part of the Bagshaw system ....

 

[pwhole]

I just spoke with Jim Rieuwerts on another matter, and mentioned all this, and he said as long as it's not too late at night, he may be able to attend the meeting if it's useful. He also said that he has Barmaster's records of Water Shaft title from Haddon Hall, dated 1649. And he has a plan of Co-op Level too. And no doubt a lot more besides.

 

[SamT]

Water shaft rake can be seen in google earth - it was shallow open cast for a while (presumably flourspar) there is a filled in shaft in the fields below Newall Nook.  It lies directly above the downstream sumps in the upper part of the stream way in bagshawe which seem to be on vein and also not a milion miles from Burton Pingles either.  When JT and Dan hibberts were pushing the downstream sump a few years ago - the main blockage is an area of breakdown that IIRC they said was very full of spar etc.  So all ties in. 

In theory - the hydrology should be straight forward - you have a flow N to S along the shale limestone border between dowse hole and the resurgence, taking direct feeders such a Quarters farm, Durham Edge, Clares Cave etc.  Then you have feeders coming in from the west from up on the hill.  These are what needs to be understood, presumably there is a lot of mine drainage associated with the 3 or 4 sough that enter the lumb just down from the resurgence. There is the reputed underwater stream that Simon Brooks claims (I'm not doubting him BTW) to have seen under neath the the glory hole sump (which pushes a massive flow up and out of the GH in very wet weather) .  Where does that come from ??!!?? is one of my biggest questions.

Enough for now!!!

 

[Big Jim]

THe symposium could be the place to discuss an access proposal to the boulder capped shaft Jim described. I have a few ideas around what might work there...

Mark, I cant find the correspondence we had with Mr Hadfield. Eavis may have copies of the two letters we sent and Im pretty sure I copied Hadfields response to Nick Williams and maybe Jenny Potts for DCA records.

Die testing the Boulder Capped shaft whould be very interesting - a lot of water going down there and last seen at approx. -120m.  Ask Eavis about it if you want to know more.
J

 

[SamT]

Interesting to deploy, or interesting in result.

I always assumed it would be fairly straight forward to drop a small vial of flouro straight down the shaft that should break and release the contents straight into the water.

 

[Big Jim]

Sam!!! I thought you were a bit more 'eco' than to go leaving broken glass around :tease:

Im sure in theory that would be easy but its got 350ft to fall and could end up landing in a pool at the bottom and not breaking......

J

 

[SamT]

I'm sure we can come up with something!

 

[Big Jim]

PVA bag???

 

[SamT]

cornstarch bag would certainly do it.

 

[pwhole]

I had a recent conversation with JG about dye-testing another shaft (run-in), and he suggested 100L 'or ideally 1000L' as a useful amount to drop down. This may be as the shaft is collapsed, whereas an open one may be easier, but nevertheless, it might need that sort of quantity to make it all the way through to Bagshaw or similar. I don't know much about dye-testing though.

 

[nickwilliams]

Whether it's 100 l or 1000 l I don't see a problem with either with the gear we have available.

 

[T pot 2]

When Bentham and Sutton did their dye testing in the mid 80s on Eldon hill adjacent to Eldon Hole east side, they used a bowser full of water borrowed from a farm. This water was poured down an excavated sink hole, I seem to remember the results being written up in the EPC journals.

T pot

 

[Rob]

I do indeed have a copy of the letter that went to Mr H reference access to Rake Head, and also his well considered reply. If any wants a copy let me know. In retrospect, the initial letter sent could have made more of our historical and scientific interest. From what i remember, we did prepare a reply indicating the protection landowners have under BCA, but it was decided that we should let things rest for a while, especially as LR was a sore point at the time.

I've looked for my sketch of the place but can't find it (nor really remember doing one). However Jim's description was excellent. From memory i remember an additional climbing shaft series heading off from the bottom which we couldn't freeclimb down. This had a large draft which was assumed circular from the waterfall in the main shaft.

Dye trace would be easy and no big water amounts would be needed. The shaft below the ginging is quite drippy, so if it doesn't make the waterfall before hitting a side, it would all get washed down pretty quickly...

I'd be interested in attending the "symposium", as long as it's kept very specific. These things have tendencies to drift away from the main objectives and becoming talking shops. Either way, what would be very useful to prepare and share before this would be a map (ideally survex file IMO) of the whole catchment(s). I'd be happy to build this, if people can share whatever they have. Does anyone have survex files for Raddlepits, Long Rake, etc...?

 

[pwhole]

I've got the bottom half of Raddelepits in Survex, given to me by JonP (made by him and Sam) a few years ago - this covers up to the 70m (kibble) landing -  I think it includes the natural chamber at the bottom too, but it's a bit difficult to rationalise in places. I can email that to you. I also have a drawn elevation of the workings we found on the west side of the 50m landing, but it's not done to any grade, and is more of a 'travel guide' than a survey, though accurate in dimensions - I can send that to you too as it's better than nowt. The top half of the mine down to there is mostly unexplored and totally unsurveyed. There's a big level off at about 25m down (though would require great care to access owing to several tons of deads walled into the shaft side as a landing floor), another just above the 50m landing, and plenty of smaller holes that look interesting.

Long Rake was closed just as I was about to do my first trip down there, so never seen it

 

[AR]

The only survey I know of for LR is the SUSS one, so someone would either need to get hold of the original data or work from the survey drawing and convert it into survex.

 

[T pot 2]

Re the symposium

I will be booking Litton village hall for the w/e 9- 10th of April. Would those interested like the event to take place over one or both days ? A small fee for booking the hall may be required but this will include food and the obligatory soup tea and coffee. It would also help if I had an idea of who would like a spot to put their case across to I hope the expectant audience. Please can someone help with contact details for Dr john Gunn and Jim Ruewits or invite them along on my behalf. The topic will be Bradwell Catchment area which is set out by the jury of twenty four in the queensfield of the high peak. Some time may be given to wormill springs because mines of the wormhill area are mentioned in the 1760s barmasters recordings.

T pot

 

[nickwilliams]

Drat, BCRC AGM on Saturday 9th, Ghar Parau meeting on 10th.

 

[Mrs Trellis]

Contact Dr John Gunn via the BCRA (chairman) or Birmingham University School of Geological Science.