New Avanti leg loops slipping

[Andrew N]

I've got 3 of the new orange web harnesses for work. The webbing has a slick feel to it unlike any caving harness I have used. It is polyester not nylon webbing which "maintains smooth adjustment over time", and polyester ropes are typically less absorbent of water than nylon, which probably means less mud ingress too.

For some balance here, I have not had any issues with my Aven. I gave it a thorough jet wash after I first became aware of the reports, hoping to remove all traces of any fabric softener used in the manufacturing process. I've not had any coming undone issues and the harness is still pretty good looking, not fluffed up or full of sediment, nor have I modified it. I'm not saying this slippage issue is not a thing, I know loads of people that have experienced it, but I'm just saying I've not yet experienced it myself. I'd be interested to know whether this is more of a problem with earlier serial numbers of the harnesses and that Petzl have addressed it internally already so current purchases are not affected, or if this issue persists even with ones made in the last few months.
My Aven was made in Dec 2022, and the 2 SuperAvantis are April 2023.

My Superavanti was purchased in Feb 2023 - not sure of the production date but presumably it was produced before I purchased it and not after.

Anyway, it definitely had this problem and I reported it to Petzl at the time and even sent them a video of the orange straps working loose with a repetitive pulling motion (pulling the strap under tension repeatedly by hand to simulate prussiking) and showing the orange strap fully release from the leg loop when doubled back. They shrugged it off and claimed there was no issue.

It has taken them at least a year after they first knew of this issue to react; only then when under fairly significant pressure from caving organisations in several countries; and the reaction is frankly abysmal. I have heard second hand of several people who have had a leg loop come fully undone and I experienced significant loosening myself on almost every pitch I used it on. It is a serious safety issue and some plastic straps aren’t a sufficient fix. Petzl will be regretting not recalling it when someone gets killed.

For what it is worth, my superavanti doesn’t slip anymore now that it is sufficiently ingrained with dirt, but like I say, when new it was a real hazard and I think only checking it regularly both when climbing and after climbing prevented one of the loops coming undone.

 

[mikem]

More discussion since the covers arrived:

Petzl Aven/Superavanti Buckle Covers

We have just received our first delivery of "anti slip devices" from Petzl and will be supplying these with every new AVEN or SUPERAVANTI from now on. We only have a limited supply and Petzl have urged anyone who already owns a harness to contact them directly to receive theirs by post. Use...

ukcaving.com

 

[pwhole]

There are plenty of other quality alternatives out there at reasonable prices, so (being polite) it seems a logical solution to someone thinking of buying an Aven is - don't, and buy one of the others instead. The MTDE Club is a very similar design, super-robust and far cheaper. And nothing slips, and yet the straps are easy to adjust. I'm not anti-Petzl, as virtually all my rope access kit is theirs, and I've never had an issue with any of it, but then it's involving much less demanding usage scenarios generally, and usually with very little prussicking involved - which is a shame as it can make operatives lazy fat bastards. My only piece of Petzl caving kit now is an Omni krab.

Of course, even their rope access market isn't immune to this kind of nonsense - the recent screw-up of the Grillon rope threading was frankly shocking, given the ease of its construction and the potentially catastrophic nature of accidental use (I can hardly call it misuse!) - someone experienced would have probably noticed it instantly, but Grillons are now becoming much more widespread, and we've used them a lot on viaduct jobs and similar for getting over high railings onto an abseil rope rigged lower, or bypassing a rebelay with a heavy load etc. A novice Level 1 going over a parapet on a night shift with a mis-threaded Grillon is quite possible. In which case you would hope their fall-arrest device saved them, but a construction fault of the primary descender isn't exactly what it's intended for.

Their fix in this case was to dismantle the equipment at home and repair it yourself. Easy of course, but...what...??!! Would they let us into their factory to assemble our own to ensure it was done properly? Though I would, if they paid my flight 😉

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Just in case anyone wants to know what the optional doo-dahs look like. Thanks Lyon/Petzl

 

[pwhole]

Now I'm beginning to suspect this whole scheme was dreamt up by Petzl's manual diagram artist, desperate for some new product

 

[Cantclimbtom]

I particularly like the little eye graphic on the far right at ruler height 10-12 if you look closely, to me anyway... it has an almost stern feel perhaps it's unapproving? 😠

 

[pwhole]

Hahah, I sent them the eye graphic, as this emoji probably wouldn't reproduce well 🧐

 

[Loki]

I particularly like the little eye graphic on the far right at ruler height 10-12 if you look closely, to me anyway... it has an almost stern feel perhaps it's unapproving? 😠

Looks more like disbelief to me. “Petzl! No wonder.”
Joking aside, making mistakes is ok as long as you admit it it make suitable amends. “C’est bien en France” doesn’t cut it.

 

[Ian P]

Whilst enjoying a long Easter Break at the country's premier caving club 😂. I came across the following article in one of their excellent journals.

It would appear that Petzl had a similar problem in 2001 🤷‍♂️.

 

[paul]

Yes - the purple Petzl harnesses were known to have the slipping issue.

 

[pwhole]

One would have thought a further 23 years of research and experience might given them a solution to this small but important problem - but no, it hasn't. Amazing. Perhaps they have some ex-UK government ministers on the Board of Directors?

 

[Flotsam]

It could be variations in the webbing sourced for the harnesses. Textile production processes have inherent variability in colour, finish weight etc.

I've noticed the leftie anti capitalists have come out against Petzl. Companies have to innovate to succeed and continue, this will result in cost cutting measures in order to compete in the marketplace and, yes, make a profit. What do others on here suggest? Buy a different brand, that's what capitalism is all about.

 

[Fjell]

MTDE harnesses don't slip. We have three different models. We are not talking metamaterials here.

 

[hartfield_estate]

clearly those woke lefties are being oversensitive by complaining about nearly falling out of their harnesses mid-pitch like, get a grip, petzl has no obligation to provide safe and usable ppe

(just mean to say I don't think the political name calling is particularly relevant in this instance. And the idea of free market capitalism is that through competition, both cost and quality improve yeah? I wouldn't call petzls supera-slippy death harness innovation but maybe that's just me)

 

[pwhole]

All my gear for work is Petzl and I like it, so I've no axe to grind here. But as above, my MTDE legloops don't slip either - I'm off to do some bolt climbing in my Picos now

 

[pwhole]

Also if they're using cost-cutting measures, why is the harness so expensive? The MTDE harnesses are way cheaper and don't slip.

 

[Maisie Syntax]

Also if they're using cost-cutting measures, why is the harness so expensive? The MTDE harnesses are way cheaper and don't slip.

You're paying for the will it?/won't it? adrenalin buzz.

 

[mikem]

Presumably more hard wearing webbing will be stiffer and thus less likely to grip

 

[hannahb]

Presumably more hard wearing webbing will be stiffer and thus less likely to grip

I think it's the other way round. The new webbing on Petzl harnesses is softer, thinner, and more comfortable, and also more slippy. I think it's treated or woven to remain softer throughout it's life, so that it doesn't get stiff and unwieldy. It's a very unfortunate trade off.

 

[Maisie Syntax]

I find that the days of stiff and unwieldy harnesses are a thing of the past since I started using this harness wash and conditioner, all in one convenient bottle.