Non-Petzl Descenders...

[D.Snaith]

just interested what descenders people use, other than the usual Petzl Stop and rack. Im liking the look of the Kong Indy and the SAR A B anybody had any experience with these?

 

[aricooperdavis]

I use the Banana, and it seems like a pretty good piece of kit for the price. My only criticisms would be that when sliding off of the front plate it seems to rub on the back plate (sometimes to the extent that I can't slide the front plate off with one hand!), and it does seem to get hotter than the stop. Nice and light and easy to use though.

 

[caving_fox]

nd it does seem to get hotter than the stop. Nice and light and easy to use though.

To some degree these two are probably related. Assuming it needs to apply the same amount of friction to the rope to slow your descent, then if it's lighter there is less metal to absorb the heat, and so it's temperature will be raised by a correspondingly greater amount. More or less.

 

[Tommy]

I use the Banana, and it seems like a pretty good piece of kit for the price. My only criticisms would be that when sliding off of the front plate it seems to rub on the back plate (sometimes to the extent that I can't slide the front plate off with one hand!), and it does seem to get hotter than the stop. Nice and light and easy to use though.

Ari, is the Kong Banana functionally the same as the Petzl Simple, just with an aesthetic tweak, or does the bend achieve anything? CT do their version as well (Acles I think) that has an extra shoulder on the back plate with a hole to attach a braking krab through.

And looking at those two D Snaith, the appear to be somewhere between a Petzl Stop with it's cam lever and an Petzl ID or similar with the panic grab function. They are also rescue-rated descenders for two person loads, I'm not sure about the simple and stop.

Is it wise to think in terms of 'class' or type of descender.
Using Petzl as a common standard:

Simple:
Multi bobbin arrangement, as Ari said, small, light and simple to use! Ideal for caving.

Stop:
Cam lever to assist with stopping mid descent, encourages poor habits in freshers and the risk of 'clutch and plummet' is there.
Awful awful things that I struggled to control as a fresher and nearly killed myself, glad I bought Simple, for my simple mind.

Rack:
We know why Racks are good, smooth descents on long pitches, good heat dissiption.

Fig 8:
Small, light, simple and robust. I have limited experience using them. Poor to lock off I believe?

Gri Gri:
Not strictly a caving descender, uses the same cam as a Stop. Good for bolt climbing belaying (so I'm told) and in a pinch can be used for self belay and progress capture (really not the ideal device though).

Reverso:
Small, light belay plates, numerous. Terrible for long pitches due to low thermal mass, the friction grooves can be a little grabby on rope, potentially affecting the users ability to control them well. Good for belaying (never!) and the smallest of the classes.

ID:
Rescue and Industry gear. 2 person load rated, panic grab features and operator protection. Full of features, bulky, heavy, expensive. Why anyone would want to use one underground escapes me, but each to their own: I used this last night in P8 and it was fine, http://www.v12outdoor.com/product.php/3691/black-diamond-atc-sport-belay-device/39e6ad8b31bfd81b668d9d5e57061c32

Other than the traditionals like the Italian hitch and Classic ab and so on. Have I missed a class of descender?

How could things be done differently?

I know clutch devices exist but I can't imagine wanting to take something like a Silent Partner underground.

 

[andrewmcleod]

And looking at those two D Snaith, the appear to be somewhere between a Petzl Stop with it's cam lever and an Petzl ID or similar with the panic grab function. They are also rescue-rated descenders for two person loads, I'm not sure about the simple and stop.

Petzl have a guide for emergency/expert use of the Stop for up to 200kg load.

Incidentally I think a grigri is a much nicer device than a Stop; I just wouldn't want to take mine underground!

 

[MJenkinson]

They are also rescue-rated descenders for two person loads, I'm not sure about the simple and stop.

Hmmm, I think we have all seen info on "rescuing" another caver using the pick-off technique and putting two people on a stop - however, I am guessing your comment is based on whether they are strictly "approved" for doing this - i.e. would the HSE let you use one for this purpose in a professional environment?

I have no idea, mine says "150kg" on the side...that is some way of being 2 x cavers of my size ha!

 

[Mark Wright]

Petzl Stops conform to EN341A which is the Rescue Descender standard. See the user instruction for loads greater than 150kg. Basically extra friction.

Simples don't conform to anything.

Mark

 

[PeteHall]

just interested what descenders people use, other than the usual Petzl Stop and rack. Im liking the look of the Kong Indy and the SAR A B anybody had any experience with these?

I generally use a rack that I made about 8 or 10 years ago, nicknamed the"death rack" by some of my mates.

I use a U configuration, which shortens the overall length while maintaining the length used for friction. I have 4 mild steel bars, two that open, two that do not open. It is also wide enough for a double rope.

The have had to compromise a little on overall length, to keep it as short as possible (beter for technical SRT), it is very slow on thicker rope, but given that I generally use 9mm that's not a problem.

It is very smooth, great heat dissipation, easy to use on long, small and technical pitches and on a double rope. It also only takes one hand to opperate and when the bars wear out, I can just make some more

I do also have an American rack a friend gave me, which is also a U-rack, but slightly longer and only takes a single rope, so I use this for trips using thicker ropes. It is stainless steel and the bars are tubes. Heat disipation is ok, but not great... It is very smooth and easy to use

 

[2xw]

I use the CT version of the simple. Its alright - i picked it cos i liked the colour

 

[AR]

I use the Kong banana now and I find it smoother than a Stop, the latter has been relegated to the spares bag unless there's a reason why I'd need to use a self-locking descender on a trip. I've also got an old CS rack which gives a nice smooth descent though the top alloy bar is getting a bit worn now.

 

[tamarmole]

Homemade four bar micro  rack with hyperbar.  Both the frame and bars are 316 stainless.  Very smooth ride with good abrasion resistance and reasonable heat dissipation. 

I find it ideal for the type of vertical mine exploration we do in the South West which is more akin to American practice than European Alpine caving  techniques. However if I was doing  lots of technical ropework with free hanging rebelays and the like I would be using a Stop type descender.  Given the choice I would try and lay my hands on one of the Australian SRTE stops which give a far superior ride compared with the Petzl Stop

 

[pwhole]

I've now switched to a Banana over the Stop, though I will still keep that nearby, as rigging trips may still prove easier to manage with less locking-off to worry about. And they're very good for rigging temporary tensioned lines, etc. The descents are very smooth with a Banana, using a Handy braking krab. I think the bend in the frame certainly helps with locking-off too, and pulling rope through to do short ascents.

I just got fed up squeezing that horrible handle and getting wrist cramp etc. At the moment though I'm finding I now have nothing at all to do with my left hand whilst descending. But always useful to have a spare...

 

[aricooperdavis]

Ari, is the Kong Banana functionally the same as the Petzl Simple, just with an aesthetic tweak, or does the bend achieve anything? CT do their version as well (Acles I think) that has an extra shoulder on the back plate with a hole to attach a braking krab through.

As pwhole mentioned, the bend definitely makes it easier to feed rope through it which is nice. I haven't noticed it being easier to lock off, but I'll have a play with it.

It does seem to provide less friction that (some) stops, but that's actively useful on long pitches where rope weight is an issue, and it's very easy to alter with a breaking crab.