Safest descender for caving?

[Masabust]

I read some different posts and lots of different meanings. I have to say I'm not an experienced caver, I have more of a mountaineering background. But when it comes to descending there is one important thing for me (wheter its a cave or a mountain) that I want a backup. And in my opinion it's way more important than speed for changeovers or whatever.

• ATC/Tuber (or figure 8) with extension and a prusik backup: For me it's the best for mountaineering/climbing, since the ATC is so versatile but I get that it's bad for caving (muddy ropes, gets hot on long rappels, can get dropped while installing, hard to changeover, especially from ascend to descend - experienced that myself)
• Bobbin like Petzl Simple: What I read most people don't use a backup with it which means If you let go the loose end of whatever reason you are pretty much dead? Doesn't sound like the best solution to me?
• Bobbin like Petzl Stop: It should be safer than a Simple but there is the danger that you don't let go the handle an once again fall to death?
• Rack (never used it myself): So of what I read, the best should be a rack, because it's good for caving and I heard if you use it right and let go the loose end of whatever reason you don't really fall immediatly, just go down on a bit faster speed?

 

[Samouse1]

1) I wouldn't use this for caving SRT
2/3) one of these would be my go to for European style SRT. I'm a simple man myself because having two hands on the dead rope (don't let go of the dead rope) gives me more control of my speed but I admit that the added safety feature of the stop is attractive to people. All a personal preference on the choice between the two
4) seems to be the go to for American style SRT with thicker ropes and fewer rebelays

 

[andrewmcleod]

The rigging in caves is very different to the (lack of) rigging for a climbing abseil (which is just 'chuck the rope down the crag' because you aren't going to come back up it). The hazards, requirements and the consequent risk assessments are very different.

On a crag? Absolutely, some sort of autolocking belay/abseil device. You are doing lots of bouncing around down a cliff, generally more potential for loose rock knocked off by the rope etc., usually this is not a main activity of the day. Ropes are generally clean and a similar diameter (9-10mm or so, or smaller but on two ropes).
In a cave? Rigging is generally free-hanging or down a clean wall, there are often rebelays and technical rigging, the rope does not touch the rock, it is a main activity of the day... it's just different. Ropes are anything between 8mm and 11mm, can be new and fast or old hairy caterpillars, can be wet or muddy; massive variations.

If you look at canyoning it _looks_ like caving at first appearance but they also use a different set of equipment and techniques because of subtle differences that change the risk assessments.

Using a prussik backup on a Petzl Simple would be extremely impractical in real use due to the many maneuvers required to descend a significant cave (adding and removing the prusik knots would take a significant amount of time and faff which isn't a good thing down a cave as we faff enough as it is!). Unlike on the surface, where (anecdotally at least) not using a prussik backup is believed to have contributed to accidents, I think accidents due to using Simples with no backup are extremely rare or unknown in practice?

Personally I use a Petzl Rig but mostly because I like the auto-locking (which is a feature extremely few climbing descenders have - possibly just the Edelrid Megawatt?).

 

[Masabust]

I saw that there are bobbin descenders with anti panic functions aswell like the kong indy evo plus. Should be the best solution then? But then again those are mainly built for industrial use, just like the Petzl Rig, but I guess those are fine for caving aswell.
It would be interesting if you put away the breaking hand on a rack if the friction is really that big that you don't get too fast...if it's the case a rack should be the best way in my opinion? The only downgrade I guess is the weight?

 

[LadyMud]

The best descender depends very much on what sort of caves you visit. Whereabouts do you cave, Masabust?

 

[cap n chris]

Training in how to use your kit is what creates the safety.

 

[JoshW]

Training in how to use your kit is what creates the safety.

Not often you’ll find me publicly agreeing with the cap’n but here we are!

Personally I find it easiest to train people on a simple bobbin device (like a simple) and I believe it sets the best brake hand discipline (compared to “auto locking” devices like the stop - or gri gri)

 

[Masabust]

The best descender in my opinion is one with a backup safety, no matter how much training you have. Saying Petzl simple is the best and with enough practice you don't let go the breaking hand anymore is a bit questionable...you can compare it to pro climbers that fall to death after 50000 rappels because they forgot to put a knot at the rope...it can always happen

 

[PeteHall]

It would be interesting if you put away the breaking hand on a rack if the friction is really that big that you don't get too fast...if it's the case a rack should be the best way in my opinion? The only downgrade I guess is the weight?

I'll freely confess, I'm a big fan of a rack, but it definitely has drawbacks. Primarily, the top-entry of the rope, combined with the length of the rack means you attachment point on the rope is very high, relative to your harness/ chest-jammer. This can make passing free-hanging rebelays or changing from up to down a challenge. A shorter rack helps with this.

In terms of letting go of the down rope, the friction depends massively on the length of rack, the number of bars currently engaged (where applicable with linger racks), how worn the rack bars are, the diameter of the rope and the weight of rope below the caver. There is no simple answer as to whether you'd survive letting go, or not, but on balance, if you're set up for a comfortable open descent, I think you'd probably survive.

 

[Masabust]

Oh and I'm from the Austrian Alps, just want to do some caves in the future (nothing big, maybe 1-2 descends at the beginning), since there are some interesting ones in my area (I have been to caves already, but just without ropes). But at the moment I'm only doing some practice, where I found out that my ATC + prusik isn't the best for a changeover so I got interested in alternatives

 

[Samouse1]

The best descender in my opinion is one with a backup safety, no matter how much training you have. Saying Petzl simple is the best and with enough practice you don't let go the breaking hand anymore is a bit questionable...you can compare it to pro climbers that fall to death after 50000 rappels because they forgot to put a knot at the rope...it can always happen

Yes it can always happen, but it's a calculated risk. I trust myself not to let go of the dead rope, I trust the people I cave with not to throw rocks down at me, the chances of something happening are slim enough that I think the added control I have over the dead rope on a simple Vs a stop outweighs the benefits that the backup feature of the stop bring for me personally.

Having that control means that I am more efficient and faster at SRT. I'm therefore not on the rope for as long, again reducing the risk of an accident. As the cap'n said, the descender you know how to use safely is going to be the safest.

On another note, the anti panic can be incredibly finnickey from experience, having to hold it in the sweet spot between not moving and the anti panic kicking is incredibly annoying, and is just another thing to focus on.

 

[langcliffe]

If you're that worried about using a back-up, why not simply use a Simple with a cord attached to the rope above the descender using a French prusik knot, and to your harness? As you descend braking with one hand, the other can be used for guiding the prusik knot down the rope. Alternatively a tiblock would probably work. Change overs will be a bit of a pain, but that's life.

 

[Masabust]

Yes it can always happen, but it's a calculated risk. I trust myself not to let go of the dead rope, I trust the people I cave with not to throw rocks down at me, the chances of something happening are slim enough that I think the added control I have over the dead rope on a simple Vs a stop outweighs the benefits that the backup feature of the stop bring for me personally.

Having that control means that I am more efficient and faster at SRT. I'm therefore not on the rope for as long, again reducing the risk of an accident. As the cap'n said, the descender you know how to use safely is going to be the safest.

On another note, the anti panic can be incredibly finnickey from experience, having to hold it in the sweet spot between not moving and the anti panic kicking is incredibly annoying, and is just another thing to focus on.

Interesting answer, thank you. Of course I agree that training with my personal setup is the most important thing! I guess for me it's more a decision which descender I'm going to try out and do practice with, since I don't want to buy 5 different in the beginning an test them all. And as a person that is very "eyed on safety?" I'm interested in different meanings on the common descenders.

 

[Masabust]

If you're that worried about using a back-up, why not simply use a Simple with a cord attached to the rope above the descender using a French prusik knot, and to your harness? As you descend braking with one hand, the other can be used for guiding the prusik knot down the rope. Alternatively a tiblock would probably work. Change overs will be a bit of a pain, but that's life.

Those stupid changeovers makes everything complicated

 

[hannahb]

Interesting answer, thank you. Of course I agree that training with my personal setup is the most important thing! I guess for me it's more a decision which descender I'm going to try out and do practice with, since I don't want to buy 5 different in the beginning an test them all. And as a person that is very "eyed on safety?" I'm interested in different meanings on the common descenders.

To begin with I would go for what most cavers in your region/country use. Looking at training documents on the Austrian Speleological Society, it seems this is probably a Petzl Stop or non-Petzl equivalent.

Even better, join a club and/or go on one of the training courses.

Verband Österreichischer Höhlenforschung - Austrian Speleological Association

Herzlich willkommen auf der Webseite des Verbandes Österreichischer Höhlenforschung

hoehle.org

 

[PeteHall]

Alternatively a tiblock would probably work

I certainly wouldn't want to use a tibloc as a backup on a descent. A Petzl Shunt would be a better choice, ad it skids to a stop and avoids shock loading and/or sheath damage that would likely result from a sudden fall onto a tibloc.

Obviously the Shunt has the same "clutch and plummet" risk as a Stop, so why not just use a Stop and avoid complicating the situation.

 

[andrewmcleod]

The best descender in my opinion is one with a backup safety, no matter how much training you have. Saying Petzl simple is the best and with enough practice you don't let go the breaking hand anymore is a bit questionable...you can compare it to pro climbers that fall to death after 50000 rappels because they forgot to put a knot at the rope...it can always happen

And yet many (most?) climbers belay with a device where if the climber falls and the belayer isn't holding the brake rope, the climber dies...

The rules that apply to climbing do not always naturally translate to caving. Different things are important for safety. A Simple is a much safer device for caving than a climbing belay device.

*Personally* I wouldn't use a Simple. But I don't think it's unreasonable at all for people to use them - they are devices used designed and used pretty much exclusively for caving. What's important is to know what _actually_ matters, not what you think matters, otherwise you spend too long worrying about things that aren't that critical and fail to worry about things that are much more dangerous.

For example, while climbers do worry about having a knot in the end of the rope, this isn't necessarily their most significant worry and doesn't _always_ happen (see indoor top roping, where people never put a knot in the end; sport climbing, where people often don't put a knot in the end (and we often hear about accidents where someone has taken their 50m rope to a 60m rope crag), and some people don't put knots in the end because they are more worried about forgetting to take them out and getting them stuck at the top (which, on a big multi-pitch abseil, can result in a Very Bad Day and potentially Night).

Most cavers are absolutely paranoid (and rightly so) about putting a knot in the end of every rope before it gets packed into a bag ready for use. Often this is multiple knots - an end knot and a backup knot about a metre from the end (because end knots do come undone).
Canyoners are also paranoid about knots at the end of their abseil ropes - they make damn sure there aren't any, because they can kill you. Different techniques for different disciplines.

If you want to be safe in caves, then worrying about the relative merits of Stops versus Simples when you have already admitted to trying to do cave SRT with inappropriate climbing belay devices suggests you would improve your safety much more rapidly by learning about caving and how caving SRT is done, preferably from experienced cavers, rather than criticizing those techniques used in caving that have been developed over decades of SRT in caves. You can then learn about the different devices available and _why_ those devices are the way they are and the various merits/disadvantages of them, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel with inappropriate and potentially dangerous techniques from climbing.

 

[langcliffe]

I certainly wouldn't want to use a tibloc as a backup on a descent. A Petzl Shunt would be a better choice, ad it skids to a stop and avoids shock loading and/or sheath damage that would likely result from a sudden fall onto a tibloc.

Obviously the Shunt has the same "clutch and plummet" risk as a Stop, so why not just use a Stop and avoid complicating the situation.

I wouldn't use a tiblok either, but any shock loading should not be more than a couple of inches (or the new-fangled equivalent). I believe the OP required a back-up mechanism / device in addition to the descender, which would also not be to my taste underground, although I know of at least one guy who does use one.

 

[owd git]

The best descender in my opinion is one with a backup safety, no matter how much training you have. Saying Petzl simple is the best and with enough practice you don't let go the breaking hand anymore is a bit questionable...you can compare it to pro climbers that fall to death after 50000 rappels because they forgot to put a knot at the rope...it can always happen

this could still happen with an auto/ safety lock device. tie a knot!!

 

[Masabust]

And yet many (most?) climbers belay with a device where if the climber falls and the belayer isn't holding the brake rope, the climber dies...

The rules that apply to climbing do not always naturally translate to caving. Different things are important for safety. A Simple is a much safer device for caving than a climbing belay device.

*Personally* I wouldn't use a Simple. But I don't think it's unreasonable at all for people to use them - they are devices used designed and used pretty much exclusively for caving. What's important is to know what _actually_ matters, not what you think matters, otherwise you spend too long worrying about things that aren't that critical and fail to worry about things that are much more dangerous.

For example, while climbers do worry about having a knot in the end of the rope, this isn't necessarily their most significant worry and doesn't _always_ happen (see indoor top roping, where people never put a knot in the end; sport climbing, where people often don't put a knot in the end (and we often hear about accidents where someone has taken their 50m rope to a 60m rope crag), and some people don't put knots in the end because they are more worried about forgetting to take them out and getting them stuck at the top (which, on a big multi-pitch abseil, can result in a Very Bad Day and potentially Night).

Most cavers are absolutely paranoid (and rightly so) about putting a knot in the end of every rope before it gets packed into a bag ready for use. Often this is multiple knots - an end knot and a backup knot about a metre from the end (because end knots do come undone).
Canyoners are also paranoid about knots at the end of their abseil ropes - they make damn sure there aren't any, because they can kill you. Different techniques for different disciplines.

If you want to be safe in caves, then worrying about the relative merits of Stops versus Simples when you have already admitted to trying to do cave SRT with inappropriate climbing belay devices suggests you would improve your safety much more rapidly by learning about caving and how caving SRT is done, preferably from experienced cavers, rather than criticizing those techniques used in caving that have been developed over decades of SRT in caves. You can then learn about the different devices available and _why_ those devices are the way they are and the various merits/disadvantages of them, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel with inappropriate and potentially dangerous techniques from climbing.

So first off, I have never done cave SRT with inappropriate gear...I have just tested out some techniques at home without any risk. If I'm ever going to do bigger caves with rebelays and that sort of stuff I'm going to join my local club, don't worry . I was just curious about the different descenders that are used/common for caving, and what are probably the advantages/disadvantages in a cave, and for that you guys already gave me some interesting informations!