Safest descender for caving?

[Cantclimbtom]

We could contribute to this thread all day and all night, but in part it will be your personal preference. I suggest you get yourself a Petzl stop (when more experienced you'll probably want a different device but by then you'll know a lot more and what does and doesn't work).
Then practice with a pair of rope over a high tree branch *not* a cave.

• Go up one rope and while still hanging in the air (don't touch the tree) swap to going down again. Then just before you touch the ground swap to going up again. Repeat for laps up and down on the same rope.
• Tie some knots and practice ascending up past a knot and descending down past a knot. Repeat for laps up and down on the same rope
• Practice going up a rope, transferring to another rope and descending that one then before you touch the ground transfer rope and climb back up. Repeat for laps using 2 ropes
• Try ascending using the stop, try descending using ascenders.
• Try to make a rebelay to pass up and down using a tree branch and sling.

Once you get completely comfortable with all this using a tree, you can take it into a cave. But DON'T try to learn this stuff in a cave on your own, and don't try out a new descender or other device in a cave, use a tree! Learn in a safe place. It's very different from rock climbing, tree climbing or mountaineering techniques. Once you master the points above you'll know a lot more about why you'll like some descenders and not others

On YouTube there are some good tutorials. Look for Derek Bristol who has excellent tutorials, vertical caving (note "frog technique"). Enjoy...

 

[langcliffe]

We could contribute to this thread all day and all night, but in part it will be your personal preference. I suggest you get yourself a Petzl stop (when more experienced you'll probably want a different device but by then you'll know a lot more and what does and doesn't work).
Then practice with a pair of rope over a high tree branch *not* a cave.

• Go up one rope and while still hanging in the air (don't touch the tree) swap to going down again. Then just before you touch the ground swap to going up again. Repeat for laps up and down on the same rope.
• Tie some knots and practice ascending up past a knot and descending down past a knot. Repeat for laps up and down on the same rope
• Practice going up a rope, transferring to another rope and descending that one then before you touch the ground transfer rope and climb back up. Repeat for laps using 2 ropes
• Try ascending using the stop, try descending using ascenders.
• Try to make a rebelay to pass up and down using a tree branch and sling.

Once you get completely comfortable with all this using a tree, you can take it into a cave. But DON'T try to learn this stuff in a cave on your own, and don't try out a new descender or other device in a cave, use a tree! Learn in a safe place. It's very different from rock climbing, tree climbing or mountaineering techniques. Once you master the points above you'll know a lot more about why you'll like some descenders and not others

On YouTube there are some good tutorials. Look for Derek Bristol who has excellent tutorials, vertical caving (note "frog technique"). Enjoy...

Unfortunately, the OP's main requirement is to have a backup in the event of an abseil failure (be it mechanical or biological). He is worried about the possibility of a clutch and plummet with the Stop not being backed up.

 

[Masabust]

We could contribute to this thread all day and all night, but in part it will be your personal preference. I suggest you get yourself a Petzl stop (when more experienced you'll probably want a different device but by then you'll know a lot more and what does and doesn't work).
Then practice with a pair of rope over a high tree branch *not* a cave.

• Go up one rope and while still hanging in the air (don't touch the tree) swap to going down again. Then just before you touch the ground swap to going up again. Repeat for laps up and down on the same rope.
• Tie some knots and practice ascending up past a knot and descending down past a knot. Repeat for laps up and down on the same rope
• Practice going up a rope, transferring to another rope and descending that one then before you touch the ground transfer rope and climb back up. Repeat for laps using 2 ropes
• Try ascending using the stop, try descending using ascenders.
• Try to make a rebelay to pass up and down using a tree branch and sling.

Once you get completely comfortable with all this using a tree, you can take it into a cave. But DON'T try to learn this stuff in a cave on your own, and don't try out a new descender or other device in a cave, use a tree! Learn in a safe place. It's very different from rock climbing, tree climbing or mountaineering techniques. Once you master the points above you'll know a lot more about why you'll like some descenders and not others

On YouTube there are some good tutorials. Look for Derek Bristol who has excellent tutorials, vertical caving (note "frog technique"). Enjoy...

You are right, I guess this is an endless topic with lot's of different meanings but thank's for your answer! And don't worry I won't descend into a cave as long as I can't do every possible move completely automatic haha.

 

[Masabust]

Unfortunately, the OP's main requirement is to have a backup in the event of an abseil failure (be it mechanical or biological). He is worried about the possibility of a clutch and plummet with the Stop not being backed up.

Yep but you guys pretty much answered my questions and why there are techniques for caving that doesn't use backups, I get that.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

He is worried about the possibility of a clutch and plummet with the Stop not being backed up.

Clutch and plummet is its special charm

But it can be avoided/managed with practice (and not using very thick fluffy old ropes). Stop is a reasonably safe device. Mostly fail safe and mostly idiot proof (when threaded correctly). Back in the day it was considered suitable for industrial use. Although yes rig is better!!

I think if OP gets intimately familiar with using a stop, he'll then know what he needs after that. IMHO it's a good choice for starting out... But opinions will vary

 

[Grolin]

Currently being an active climber as well as caver so I can see both sides. Even when abseiling on a belay device I need a reason to abseil with a prussik. i.e.

• a rescue scenario
• loose rock, so risk of being knocked unconscious
• when I am expecting to let go, when being the first down where ropes are snagged etc.
• when the rope is particularly slippery i.e. dry, thin, new and dry treated ropes
• where I may loose my footing so wet slimy or icy pitches.
• If I need more friction for literally any reason

otherwise I abseil with my belay device directly to my belay loop with no backup. I prefer to use anything else but I no longer have a figure 8.

when caving I am one of the few cavers who prefer a 5 bar rack for the adjustability of the friction but all complex maneuvers are an absolute pain in the ass. Once you get used to it it's alright but requires a different style of SRT.

Using an abseil device with a handle means you have no free hand to fend of the wall which can be dangerous. Which I suspect is the main reason some cavers prefer simples. Stops aren't a simple with a stopping function. Stops have steel bobbins whereas simples have aluminum bobbins. The aluminum bobbins are better at dissipating heat so you can abseil faster without glazing the rope.

Stops also aren't a hands free abseil device so not massively helpful although, unless you happen to weigh a lot, you will stop. I do know people who slip on stops although the stops are normally worn or the person particularly heavy. Rigs are worth looking at if you want a hands free abseil device although big, heavy and expensive. i.e. you have pros and cons to everything and its personal preference.

The go to at the moment as far as I can tell for a beginner abseil device is the stop although I think the simple is better as it teaches you better technique. In a cave the biggest risk to life is hypothermia. It's better to be quicker and stay warmer than be slower and prepared for an unlikely circumstance.

All of the mentioned devices are Petzl other companies do similar devices like the Kong Banana instead of the simple. I do apologies for the waffle but my thoughts are down and I may as well be comprehensive. People will probably disagree with me but that's fine.

 

[BigDyl]

Personal preference,
1. No
2. I like the simple, but i don't use one just in case i were to become incapacitated.
3. I use a stop and like it. I don't see a situation where you would not let go of the handle?
4. Alright, but if threaded back to front can just pop off the rope.

 

[PeteHall]

Personal preference,
4. Alright, but if threaded back to front can just pop off the rope.

This is pretty much impossible to do by mistake, unless you are a complete tool, in which case, your choice of descender is the least of your worries.

 

[topcat]

This is pretty much impossible to do by mistake, unless you are a complete tool, in which case, your choice of descender is the least of your worries.

But you won't have to worry about it for very long ....

I did consider trying a rack when I was caving a lot with a rack user. It looked much smoother than my Stop. However I decided against it on the grounds of being too ' fingery ' for my old and creaky digits.

 

[Fulk]

In a cave the biggest risk to life is hypothermia. It's better to be quicker and stay warmer than be slower and prepared for an unlikely circumstance.

Well, possibly, but even if true I doubt very much whether a (slightly) quicker descent would make much difference to the chances of getting hypothermia.

 

[Grolin]

Well, possibly, but even if true I doubt very much whether a (slightly) quicker descent would make much difference to the chances of getting hypothermia.

this was comparing just an abseil device to abseil device and backup. the difference between rack simple stop etc. is negligible. just to clear up any confusion

 

[Brains]

Not seen it mentioned yet, so... Fig8 type devices will put a twist in the rope, which can cause rebelay loops to knot up and become unusable.
Whale tails are vaguely similar to racks...
Training should be extensive with your device of choice. Seriously consider what the other locals are using, and get in the habit of checking each others kit for correct use. Initial learning should be with a basic non locking device to learn good techniques.
Consider how muddy you are likely to get. Some more industrial items don't like getting clogged up!
Finally, on big alpine trips it is common to move kit to a gear loop at the side on longer non roped sections. I have seen tired cavers try to abseil off gear loops!
Learn learn learn... Remember the rule of 7 P's
Proper
Planning and
Practice
Prevent
Piss
Poor
Performance!

 

[PeteHall]

Whale tails are vaguely similar to racks...

Now there's a descender that you really can thread the wrong way around!

In fact, the intuitive way it thread it is backwards! This can be mitigated through training and practice, but it would still be quite possible to get wrong, hence the addition of a safety gate. I've not tried a whale tail in failure state (ie. relying on the gate), but I imagine it would be pretty fast and uncontrollable, as the gate only covers the top couple of 'tails'.

 

[hannahb]

Currently being an active climber as well as caver so I can see both sides. Even when abseiling on a belay device I need a reason to abseil with a prussik. i.e.

• a rescue scenario
• loose rock, so risk of being knocked unconscious
• when I am expecting to let go, when being the first down where ropes are snagged etc.
• when the rope is particularly slippery i.e. dry, thin, new and dry treated ropes
• where I may loose my footing so wet slimy or icy pitches.
• If I need more friction for literally any reason

otherwise I abseil with my belay device directly to my belay loop with no backup. I prefer to use anything else but I no longer have a figure 8.

when caving I am one of the few cavers who prefer a 5 bar rack for the adjustability of the friction but all complex maneuvers are an absolute pain in the ass. Once you get used to it it's alright but requires a different style of SRT.

Using an abseil device with a handle means you have no free hand to fend of the wall which can be dangerous. Which I suspect is the main reason some cavers prefer simples. Stops aren't a simple with a stopping function. Stops have steel bobbins whereas simples have aluminum bobbins. The aluminum bobbins are better at dissipating heat so you can abseil faster without glazing the rope.

Stops also aren't a hands free abseil device so not massively helpful although, unless you happen to weigh a lot, you will stop. I do know people who slip on stops although the stops are normally worn or the person particularly heavy. Rigs are worth looking at if you want a hands free abseil device although big, heavy and expensive. i.e. you have pros and cons to everything and its personal preference.

The go to at the moment as far as I can tell for a beginner abseil device is the stop although I think the simple is better as it teaches you better technique. In a cave the biggest risk to life is hypothermia. It's better to be quicker and stay warmer than be slower and prepared for an unlikely circumstance.

All of the mentioned devices are Petzl other companies do similar devices like the Kong Banana instead of the simple. I do apologies for the waffle but my thoughts are down and I may as well be comprehensive. People will probably disagree with me but that's fine.

I disagree with almost all of this hey ho, that's forum life.

 

[Fulk]

I've not tried a whale tail in failure state (ie. relying on the gate), but I imagine it would be pretty fast and uncontrollable, as the gate only covers the top couple of 'tails'.

Well Pete (I think I've mentioned this before somewhere on UKC, but I can't find it), many years ago I got involved with some trials of how hot descenders got when abseiling. This involved abbing off Malham Cove, trying to maintain a fixed rate of descent, with a thermocouple attached to the device. A well-known caver was kneeling on the edge of the Cove, about to abb off on a whaletail, when someone said to him, 'Hang on, I think that's threaded wrongly'. (It was, indeed, threaded the 'intuitive' way). So, we set up a little abseil on a low rock outcrop just above the Cove and tested it threaded the obvious/wrong way; as soon as the person's weight came on the device it flicked off the rope . . .

 

[PeteHall]

we set up a little abseil on a low rock outcrop just above the Cove and tested it threaded the obvious/wrong way; as soon as the person's weight came on the device it flicked off the rope . . .

Do you recall if the 'safety' gate was closed?

 

[Fulk]

It didn't have a 'safety gate' . . . I guess it was on account of incidents like this that they added one.

 

[mikem]

Searching whaletail malham only brings up two posts:

F

Post in thread 'Whale tail descenders'

Oct 26, 2023

Here's a little anecdote for you:

One day (many years ago) a group of us (organized by Andy Eavis) went to Malham Cove to see how hot various types of descender got in use on a long pitch on a dry rope, using a thermocouple attached to a very long wire. At one point someone was kneeling on the edge of the (220-ft) Cove about to abseil on the whaletail (basically a big chunk of aluminium bar with several ‘spigots’, looking a bit like mushrooms, down one side, around which the rope is wrapped), when somebody tapped him on the shoulder and said, ‘I think that thing’s threaded wrongly’. The...

• Fulk

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[Stuart France]

This topic keeps coming around each few years. There is no outstandingly good descender out there which is why there are so many disparate and sometimes bizarre offerings on the market. They all have their particular advantages, issues and risks. Generally they fall into just a few categories:
(1) a hole around which the rope twists, plus or minus prongy bits sticking out of the side(s)
(2) a hole through which the hole is pushed and then compressed inside a bend formed against something like a karabiner
(3) a series of parallel bars through which the rope zigzags from side to side (the bars might be solid or tubular)
(4) a couple of bobbins arranged above each other through which the rope make an S shape with the dead rope at the top.

Personally, I like five-bar racks with solid bars, never having got on with bobbin thingies. Commercial racks tend to be too long or heavy and eventually the replacement bars cannot be bought as products and the manufacturers disappear. The solution to getting something that suits an individual best is likely to build your own. It's not rocket science.

Mine uses Petzl's bars which are tough, well thought out, likely to be available as spare parts for a long time, but just in case I've done a one-time buy of them. Its parallel side bars and end nylock nuts are titanium. The 'angle' plates top and bottom are aerospace aluminium. It's lighter than the Petzl Stop and Petzl Rack. The bottom piece of angle has a big hole to karabiner it to my sit harness. The top piece of angle has a central V-slot acting as a brake which accommodates the usual rope diameters in various states of furriness. Pushing a bight of rope through the big hole between the bars at the bottom (while in use) and then over the top angle locks it off. Bars 1 and 3 (the red ones) are fixed so it cannot be fitted with the rope back to front. If all five bars engage with the rope and the V-slot is not used, then if I let go of the dangling rope my descent continues but not at an alarming speed. Changing the bars is just a matter of removing a pair of nuts.

I hope we all know, regardless of descender preference, that the bottom end of any rope being packed loosely into a tackle bag for immediate use out-of-the-bag needs a big knot in it, and each inch of the rope itself needs checking for flaws as it passes through your fingers into the bag. And finally, the pitch head belay has to be bombproof, with friction prevented on potential rub points both down and back up. Other than that, there's not a lot to go wrong...