Ogof Draenen - New Entrance

[Andy Sparrow]

We are still being presented with arguments which describe the benefits of a single entrance system but the reality is that this cave now has two entrances.  Many cavers may feel that in an ideal world this would be a single entrance cave and therefore supported the policy that maintained the previous status-quo.  But Let us be quite clear about something - SUPPORTING A RIGID SINGLE ENTRANCE POLICY MEANS BLOCKING THE NEW ENTRANCE.    We are dangerously close to ENTRANCE WARS which could be the most acrimonious and destructive conflict in the history of British caving.  The fastest and surest way to lose the support of caving public opinion is to block caves or deny access.  If PDCMG take direct action to block the new entrance they will be reviled by the majority of cavers.  It will be a public relations disaster. 

 

[teabag]

*cough ....

..... I am still trying to understand the fabric of the PDCMG .....

"Who" decided that the "body" should be brought into existence? (Ie. local authority, BCA, independent group of people etc.)

and

Has the PDCMG approached the relevant landowners for (exclusive) access rights ?

Sorry if I am being a bit dim .......

Cheers,

Ian

This is all the 'history' part of the pdcmg website has to say on this-

Pwll Du Cave Management Group

The Morgannwg Caving Club broke through into the main cave passage on 6 October 1994 and soon decided to control access. In July 1996 a Pwll Ddu Cave Management Group was proposed with a constitution based on that of the Mynydd Llangatock CMAG. Biannual (November and June) meetings have been held ever since, with the biennial June meetings reelecting officers. Initial vagueness over land ownership was resolved but became a problem as legal points were raised. A land sale was then undertaken when a local consortium took over from the Coal Authority.

 

[Ian Adams]

Thanks for clearing that up Teabag ~ I appreciate it 

Who owns the land that NigR has dug the new entrance on?

More spefically, would I be right in assuming he (and the others) had the landowners permission to be there and dig ?

Ian

 

[JB]

I've only been in Draenan once and don't know anything about the politics. However long/deep caves where you're a long way in and far from an exit are rare in the UK. I would rather see Draenan left with it's single entrance allowing those cavers with the necessary motivation and fitness to enjoy long committing trips for sport or pushing. I think this is more important than anyone's 'need' to find new passage.

Jules.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

I've only been in Draenan once and don't know anything about the politics. However long/deep caves where you're a long way in and far from an exit are rare in the UK. I would rather see Draenan left with it's single entrance allowing those cavers with the necessary motivation and fitness to enjoy long committing trips for sport or pushing. I think this is more important than anyone's 'need' to find new passage.

Jules.

So, does this mean you support the blocking of the new entrance?

 

[JB]

I've only been in Draenan once and don't know anything about the politics. However long/deep caves where you're a long way in and far from an exit are rare in the UK. I would rather see Draenan left with it's single entrance allowing those cavers with the necessary motivation and fitness to enjoy long committing trips for sport or pushing. I think this is more important than anyone's 'need' to find new passage.

Jules.

So, does this mean you support the blocking of the new entrance?

Yes.

 

[menacer]

I would rather see Draenan left with it's single entrance allowing those cavers with the necessary motivation and fitness to enjoy long committing trips for sport or pushing.

We can still enjoy those trips Jules, I love the p40 guirs mort trip in France , there are lots of other intermediate entrances but we dont have to use them.

 

[JB]

I would rather see Draenan left with it's single entrance allowing those cavers with the necessary motivation and fitness to enjoy long committing trips for sport or pushing.

We can still enjoy those trips Jules, I love the p40 guirs mort trip in France , there are lots of other intermediate entrances but we dont have to use them.

I can see your point of view but some people particularly enjoy caving in remote places where the stakes are higher. An entrance at the other end of the system will make trips to parts of the cave significantly less committing. We have plenty of easily accessible cave in the UK. I'd rather see the far end of Draenan left as one of the most remote places in the country and left to challenge and inspire future cavers.

Jules.

 

[whitelackington]

If a right hard caver wanted a right hard trip,
couldn't he go in the original entrance, then make his way to the new entrance, then turn around and go back out the original entrance?

 

[menacer]

Na - theres longer trips doing Pip to top Sink, end of Daren, end of Aggy and even ends of draenan, than old to new entrance and back again....

 

[Rob]

If the main advantage of the second entrance is to improve accessibility for the diggers to the end, then why can't it just be a gated entrance on which a key is needed. You wouldn't even need it to be openable from the inside without that key (unlike OFD Top) so tourist throughtrips could be controlled...

 

[menacer]

Good answer Rob  sounds a good comprimise..

 

[Andy Sparrow]

I'd rather see the far end of Draenan left as one of the most remote places in the country and left to challenge and inspire future cavers.

It's the 'vision thing'.  I appreciate your sentiments about future cavers but here is another possibility - that easier access facilitates exploration and allows new areas of remote cave to be discovered.

My vision is that future cavers will enjoy the 100 mile multi-entrance system that this cave has the potential to be.

 

[Lou Maurice]

The main arguments against gating a cave entrance and restricting access via management are:
1) The passages near the new entrance still become damaged.
2) The natural wilderness of the cave is lost because the far areas become less remote (e.g. to some cavers a 1-3-1 trip in OFD would not be as interesting as a trip to the far end of Ogof Draenen, because there are 4 places where you can change your mind and reduce the length of the trip, and anyway there is not much point going to OFD3 from OFD1 when it is so much easier to go from top entrance).
3) It is difficult to decide who should have access to the key and who shouldn?t and it inevitably creates an elitist system where some people are allowed access and others aren?t and who you know is often more important than cave conservation.

There is no need for another entrance to improve accessibility for diggers ? it is perfectly possible to access the cave from the current entrance, and if it takes a bit longer to breakthrough it simply means that there will be more left for future generations to find.  Imagine a 100 mile system with one entrance ? future cavers would no longer need to go abroad to experience a truly remote, long cave.

 

[menacer]

  Imagine a 100 mile system with one entrance ? future cavers would no longer need to go abroad to experience a truly remote, long cave.

One of the joys with going oversees to  Push new systems is  because there's none of the Bollocktics that that goes with caving in England....

The future generation thing is a tad over hyped.
What your saying to the "future generation" is this.

When I explored as a lad we had numerous entrance and didnt have to go much more than 4 hours into a cave before we started digging....but we've decided now weve found our new cave near the entrance, that with hyndsite thats not the best thing in cave conservation, so you young wipper snappers must endure 8 hour trips before you get to the dig face...and dont you complain young laddy/lasy, its all in the name of Conservation"

Discuss 

 

[graham]

So, Menacer, what you'd rather say to the next generation is "well we found lots of cave but now its trashed and you'll never be able to appreciate its beauty, tough".

 

[El Agreb]

I would rather see Draenan left with it's single entrance allowing those cavers with the necessary motivation and fitness to enjoy long committing trips for sport or pushing. I think this is more important than anyone's 'need' to find new passage.

Jules.

Jules

The sad fact, or the good news, is Draenan does not have a single entrance, there are at least 3, and maybe many more albeit choked at present. If it did have only one that would be great and simple but it doesn't. If on the other hand the new entrance, or the next new entrance, led to further development of many more kilometres of passage look at what you might be missing in terms of commitment if they were blocked. Even the committee members would be appeased as they could have lots more meetings, patronise and reel out many more hundreds of metres of that tasteful ribbon and protect us from ourselves in our best interests.

Pushing would also have to be taken off the menu as you might accidentally actually make discoveries that could lead to the surface causing yet another controversy.

However blocking off entrances does seem like a good idea just imagine the sporting trips you could have if Titan and J.H. were capped or gate Top Sink with a combination lock, blocking all the other entrances, and traversing through to touch that eco friendly concrete cap on Bye George (where you will find the combination etched in code) and then all the way back making sure you remember the number. Now that would be commitment! All the other entrances would have to be properly blocked though, no CROs holding keys or having the means to get through them.

By the way I think we have just found the 57th entrance into the xxxxx , fancy lending a hand?

 

[menacer]

No graham , I want the next generation of cavers to find beautiful cave with the same freedom of movement as the last generation.

 

[whitelackington]

Advocates of single entrance  policy should
NEVER BE ALLOWED TO COMPLETE A "DUG" THROUGH TRIP IN THE U.K.

 

[graham]

No graham , I want the next generation of cavers to find beautiful cave with the same freedom of movement as the last generation.

And you'd be happy if their finds are trashed as well? Leaving vanishingly small amounts of beautiful cave for anyone to appreciate?