Ogof Draenen - New Entrance

[Jopo]

Just for clarity.
The link Rhys posted referred to the Ogofone. Gwent CRT actually meant the Heyphone, the Ogofone replacement. Both of course totally unsuitable for radio location without considerable modification- being magnetic induction communications devices.
I think digging on the strength of a good Heyphone reception could waste a fair amount of time. 
As minuted John Stevens then asked about the use of Ogofones for surveyors.
A survey using the Ogofone(Heyphone) would possibly give a fresh air cave.

Jopo

 

[NigR]

So maybe I was misinformed and radiolocation is not banned at all? Would someone like to test the water by writing to the PDCMG asking for permission to use radiolocation equipment in the cave and let me know the reply they receive?

To clarify Jopo's clarification:

We were using both radiolocation equipment and Ogofones, the former to fix relative points in either cave and the latter to talk to each other (from the surface to the cave and vice versa). (Although I suppose the Ogofone might have been a Heyphone, not too sure really.) The radiolocation proved to be accurate enough but was not needed in the end. Overall, the Ogofones were much more fun. Unless you really don't have any idea at all where to dig I would certainly suggest getting a pair of Ogofones for Christmas rather than a set of radiolocation gear.

 

[Rhys]

Just for clarity.
The link Rhys posted referred to the Ogofone. Gwent CRT actually meant the Heyphone, the Ogofone replacement.

The Heyphone didn't exist in 1997 Jopo. They meant Ogofone! But who cares...

Rhys

 

[Jopo]

Time passes so quick for us old f* that you are right Rhys.
I began issuing Heyphons in for the BCRC 2001 and as WBCRT were the first off the line I should have remembered.

Valid main point though.

Suitably humbled and corrected.

Jopo

One of life's little pleasures - went you start into your dotage - is knowing that all the young tigers are heading the same way.

 

[Dear Noel Axle]

Hi Nig,
thankyou for your public statement. I have some questions as I am not sure that I understand your motives for opening the connection to the main cave.

As I understand it the new entrance branches out giving a number of leads which you presumably would like to dig. One of these you have shown, provides a connection to Ogof Draenen.

I understand that these leads would probably not have been found from the Draenen side, hence the new entrance, but what is the purpose of the connection? Is it that you would also like to dig in the further reaches of Draenen and avoid the lengthy trip to the dig site, or is the purpose to provide a through trip and is unreleated to pushing new ground?

Many thanks, and sorry if you've answered this elsewhere as there's lots to read through.

Alexander

 

[mrodoc]

Having had the opportunity to visit the longest cave in the world this year I don't think additional entrances need to cause problems. You just need to get an appropriate access arrangement organised quickly. Damage is most caused, I suspect, by very large parties of variously skilled cavers. Restrict party sizes to a maximum of six and create very obvious made paths round the vulnerable bits - not just tapes. Mammoth has umpteen entrances and I can tell you knowing this halfway through doesn't make you feel any less remote (relative distances are no different to Draenen). Just a few thoughts anyway.

 

[NigR]

As I understand it the new entrance branches out giving a number of leads which you presumably would like to dig. One of these you have shown, provides a connection to Ogof Draenen.

Correct. We are currently digging in the new cave. One site shows particular promise and it is hoped that this will lead to further discoveries in the near future.

Is it that you would also like to dig in the further reaches of Draenen and avoid the lengthy trip to the dig site, or is the purpose to provide a through trip and is unreleated to pushing new ground?

The ultimate aim of all our digs is to discover new cave passage. It is hoped that the new entrance will encourage more exploration at the far end of Draenen because, as you rightly point out, it shortens the journey so allowing  more time to be spent doing something worthwhile once you are there.

The purpose of the connection is NOT simply to provide a through trip. Personally, I have no interest in sporting caving whatsoever, although I understand the motives of those who do. I don't do tourist trips, end of story (didn't even bother to go with my mates on the first through trip here, couldn't see much point to it!). This is why I would be willing to accept restrictions on the use of our entrance (i.e. working trips only) if it came down to it, even though some of my fellow diggers disagree.

 

[NigR]

It also means that the 'should we have multiple entrances to Draenen' debate becomes the 'what do we do about this' question.

As one of the founder member clubs of the PDCMG, it has always been the preferred intention of Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros that access via any entrances we might discover should be administered by the PDCMG. This is still the case.

However, it is now appearing increasingly unlikely that the PDCMG is going to be willing to do so.

Certainly, with the current single entrance policy it is clear that any other entrances cannot be allowed to exist. It was always hoped that there might be some relaxation of this policy but it would appear that the opposite may in fact be taking place. One of the controlling clubs recently polled its members prior to the upcoming meeting, the results indicating that they are now overwhelmingly in favour of imposing a ban on digging anywhere within the catchment area from Gilwern Hill to Snatchwood Rising. Ludicrous and totally unenforceable, but it shows the way things are sadly heading.

Our club representative at Sunday's meeting will be doing his very best to pave the way for common sense to prevail and an amicable settlement to be reached. We will be seeking to create a situation whereby constructive measures to ensure long-term access can be investigated. However, I am far from optimistic that we will meet with much success. As things currently stand the most likely outcome (as I see it) is that the status quo will prevail and a motion will be passed to fill our entrance in. I hope I'm wrong.

Should my assessment prove to be correct, it is obvious that Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros can no longer continue to be members of the PDCMG. It will be with heavy hearts that we leave but it will also be with our heads held high, knowing that we have done the right thing. As I told the Secretary of the PDCMG several months ago, we have done what we have done for true cavers everywhere, not just for ourselves. The support we have received over the last couple of days provides more than ample justification for the stance we have taken.

We are ready for the struggle ahead, whatever form that may have to take.

 

[danthecavingman]

I have a suggestion!

How about we fill in the original entrance and just use Nig's new one instead?

Single entrance policy - everybody happy!

Dan.  :tease:

 

[SamT]

Brilliant idea Dan, 

cant think why nobody has thought of it earlier 

Good luck Nigel..seems to me that on the face of it, your just doing what any logical cave explorer/digger would do.

Keep on pushing - 

 

[andymorgan]

Having had the opportunity to visit the longest cave in the world this year I don't think additional entrances need to cause problems. You just need to get an appropriate access arrangement organised quickly. Damage is most caused, I suspect, by very large parties of variously skilled cavers. Restrict party sizes to a maximum of six and create very obvious made paths round the vulnerable bits - not just tapes. Mammoth has umpteen entrances and I can tell you knowing this halfway through doesn't make you feel any less remote (relative distances are no different to Draenen). Just a few thoughts anyway.

Isn't access to Mammoth relatively restricted though? I thought that cavers can't just turn up and cave when they want to (if you did turn up without prior warning, the land owners would greet you with automatic weapons!), and the locations of the entrances aren't publicised. I may be wrong though.

Good luck Nigel..seems to me that on the face of it, your just doing what any logical cave explorer/digger would do.

What, 'discovering' known cave? 

 

[graham]

By the Lord Harry there are some pompous types around. 

 

[SamT]

What, 'discovering' known cave? 

nope  - piecing together all the parts of the jigsaw, which is what, at a basic level, cave exploration is all about.

Draenen will once have had many entrances, if all leads in the cave are pushed (be it from inside or out), it will again, have many entrances.  :-\

As a bystander, with little knowledge of the politics, I really cant see what all the fuss is about. 

 

[graham]

Draenen will once have had many entrances, if all leads in the cave are pushed (be it from inside or out), it will again, have many entrances.  :-\

Really? As one who has spent the past few decades wandering around limestone areas, I would honestly say that the default state of the cave/surface interface is "choked", "flooded" or "choked and flooded". Good conservation strategies would include the premise that one deviates from that state to the minimum extent possible.

 

[danthecavingman]

:chair: Oh for f**ck's sake. Lets just fill in all cave entrances, hang up our furry suits and pretend that caves don't exist.

I'm bored of this stupid 'conservation' argument. It's simple. if we choose to go caving then the cave environment will be modified by our passing. If you really wan't to protect caves then don't go caving. End of story.

Should I stop digging at Pindale just in case I find, 'shock horror' more cave. No. I'm digging at Pindale because there is potential for more cave. And if we find some it's up to us to try and minimise the damage that is done to it. By putting a big gate on it. And not allowing anyone in. Except me. And people I want to let in.

I must admit that I do not understand all the bleating being made about Draenen. As a caver interested in finding more cave I a) completely understand why Nig was digging in the first place (to find more cave) and b) support the fact that he has now made it easier to push the remote leads that may lead into the elusive passages downstream of Riflemans Choke that may make Draenen a mere inlet to a much bigger system.

I find it sad that so much fuss is being made about this when we have a chance to just act responsibly and go with the flow.

Cast your minds back less than 20 years when a certain very well known Derbyshire stream cave had around 100m of it's stream passage (including two fine cascades that now only exist in photos) irrepairably damaged by someone's very selfish digging activities. Look back further at what happened to Lancaster Hole.

As cavers we are guilty of past mistakes and should learn from them. Not by stopping people digging and finding more cave, but by protecting what is found via sensible access agreements and careful taping and photographing. If a dig does break into a vulnerable area then consider making it off limits. In Pindale we did exactly this and filled in the entrance to a passage to ensure that it was never trashed.

As an example in Wales, compare the damage done to OFD and Aggy with the limited impact cavers have had on Daren and Draenen. It seems we have already learnt the lessons.

Should will fill in Elm Hole / Pwll-y-Cwm because they allow access via another route to the end of a remote system. No. Why? Beacuse that route was pushed with a lot of hard work to try and further unlock the secrets under Llangattock. Similarly, should we blow in the entrance to Price's dig? No again. How about we fill in the connection between Peak and Speedwell? Giant's and Oxlow?

I hope that the PDCMG will act as a Management group and not as some sort of policy dictator on entrances.

It is perfectly obvious why the original 'second' entrance was a bad idea. Is Nig's new entrance such a problem?

I'm not convinced......

Dan.

 

[NigR]

What, 'discovering' known cave? 

I'm getting a bit tired of repeating this but I'll say it again as some folk have clearly not caught on yet.

We have discovered previously unentered cave passages. One of these passages connects to known cave. The other passages are currently being dug in the hope of discovering more unentered cave passages.

Is that clear enough?

I'm bored of this stupid 'conservation' argument. It's simple. If we choose to go caving then the cave environment will be modified by our passing. If you really wan't to protect caves then don't go caving. End of story.

A lot of people are now (thankfully) beginning to see through this 'conservation' smoke screen. But, if conservation really is the overriding factor those who promote that view would have us believe then I will make an offer they simply cannot refuse.

Back in 1995, during the course of two trips (firstly alone, secondly with Mark Withers) I dug open a blocked crawl at the end of Elliptic Passage. This led to a longer section of crawling (Lucky 13 Passage) before emerging at a t-junction (Big Beauty Junction) with a larger passage (Gone With the Wind). Even today, this is the route you follow to the further reaches of the cave, whether you are going to Big Country, War of the Worlds or Dollimore's. Why did I dig open that passage? So that other cavers could follow on and push into the unknown, that's why. Now we have a situation whereby some of those very same cavers are insisting that other people are denied a similar opportunity to the one I gave them. These are the ones using 'conservation' as an excuse for their selfishness, pure and simple.

So here is my offer to them:

Despite what you may want other people to think, the cave is not as it was the day it was first found. In fact it's pretty trashed in places. I know because I was there on that first day and I was there last week too. If conservation really is the be-all and end-all that you say, then let's call it a day here and now. The cave is never going to go back to how it once was but at least we'll prevent all that passage nobody has seen yet from being trashed as well. I'm perfectly willing to go and replace all those rocks I took out, along with a whole load of others. Let's leave the place in peace, once and for all.

OK, anybody willing to take me up on this?

 

[owd git]

Am i the only one to be genuinely surprised by just how quickly NigR went from revered digger to anarchyst on this string?
put the politics back in the box for a while.
dig on
shit your tee total pretend its fruit punch

 

[cap n chris]

 

[NigR]

put the politics back in the box for a while.

Point taken. After Sunday we'll be able to do just that.

dig on

We'll be digging on no matter what but would prefer to be digging something new rather than just re-digging something we have already dug.

 

[Ian Adams]

Because everyone who is reading this doesn't know (me included); please could someone tell us;

1) Who, exactly, are the PCMDG ? (eg. a body made up of .... ?)
2) What is their mandate ?
3) Under what authority are they acting ?

Thanks,

Ian