Ogof Draenen - New Entrance

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The older I get the more and more beautiful cave seems to exist and remain existing,The daren diggers manage to preserve new finds fairly close to the entrance... I still admire the colums in Ofd, the straws in dan yr ogof, the taped stal in daren, geryon in draenan, the wessex series in draenan,the coutesan in aggy, white river series derbyshire - the only tales I know of stal/caves being trashed to non exsitence are of stories of GB ladder dig, tratmans temple in swildons,easter grotto in Yorkshire, stories of old, were lessons were learned as a result... the stal were not taped (or the tape has long since disappeared).

The beauty of caves in Britain is no where near what youd describe as being trashed into "Vanishingly small ammounts for anyone to appreciate"..

 

[Ian Adams]

* Cough

Who owns the land that NigR has dug the new entrance on?

Or, more spefically, would I be right in assuming he (and the others) had the landowners permission to be there and dig ?

Ian

 

[graham]

You'd have to ask NigR those questions.

 

[Chris Densham]

Thanks for clearing that up Teabag ~ I appreciate it 

Who owns the land that NigR has dug the new entrance on?

More spefically, would I be right in assuming he (and the others) had the landowners permission to be there and dig ?

Ian

I have it on good authority that the landowner has said that Nig Rogers has neither sought nor gained permission from him to dig a new entrance to Draenen on his land.
Chris

 

[Ian Adams]

If NigR did/does not have permission, has anyone considered approaching the landowner as to their wishes on the matter ?

Ian

 

[danthecavingman]

:spank: Bad Nig!

I hope this isn't true.......

 

[graham]

:spank: Bad Nig!

I hope this isn't true.......

Assuming that it is true (and I have no knowledge either way), how would you suggest that cavers react?

 

[Chris Densham]

We are still being presented with arguments which describe the benefits of a single entrance system but the reality is that this cave now has two entrances.  Many cavers may feel that in an ideal world this would be a single entrance cave and therefore supported the policy that maintained the previous status-quo.  But Let us be quite clear about something - SUPPORTING A RIGID SINGLE ENTRANCE POLICY MEANS BLOCKING THE NEW ENTRANCE.    We are dangerously close to ENTRANCE WARS which could be the most acrimonious and destructive conflict in the history of British caving.  The fastest and surest way to lose the support of caving public opinion is to block caves or deny access.  If PDCMG take direct action to block the new entrance they will be reviled by the majority of cavers.  It will be a public relations disaster.

I have heard that Andy Sparrow has himself blocked a second entrance to a cave in the Mendips because he was concerned of the impact of easier access on delicate formations. So, he must understand the concerns of people over this issue.
Regards,
Chris

 

[NigR]

If the main advantage of the second entrance is to improve accessibility for the diggers to the end, then why can't it just be a gated entrance on which a key is needed. You wouldn't even need it to be openable from the inside without that key (unlike OFD Top) so tourist throughtrips could be controlled...

At the present time, this would be my own personal preference regarding long-term access.

 

[graham]

I note that NigR has commented on the thread without answering the substantive questions about landowner's consent.

Not that I think anything should be read into this ...

 

[Andy Sparrow]

We are still being presented with arguments which describe the benefits of a single entrance system but the reality is that this cave now has two entrances.  Many cavers may feel that in an ideal world this would be a single entrance cave and therefore supported the policy that maintained the previous status-quo.  But Let us be quite clear about something - SUPPORTING A RIGID SINGLE ENTRANCE POLICY MEANS BLOCKING THE NEW ENTRANCE.    We are dangerously close to ENTRANCE WARS which could be the most acrimonious and destructive conflict in the history of British caving.  The fastest and surest way to lose the support of caving public opinion is to block caves or deny access.  If PDCMG take direct action to block the new entrance they will be reviled by the majority of cavers.  It will be a public relations disaster.

I have heard that Andy Sparrow has himself blocked a second entrance to a cave in the Mendips because he was concerned of the impact of easier access on delicate formations. So, he must understand the concerns of people over this issue.
Regards,
Chris

Yes, I understand the concerns perfectly and hence the action back in 1987 to protect the newly discovered lower series of Pierre's Pot.  In that instance we are talking about an obvious cave entrance on the main path to Goatchurch.  Unlike Pierre's Pot Ogof Draenen is not likely to attract passing casual visitors and the formations contained within require a good level of caving competence to reach.  I do not see any evidence that British cavers 'trash' caves and am becoming irritated by those who imply otherwise. 

 

[rhychydwr1]

Just occurred to me.  Nobody objected when a second entrance was made to Swildons.

 

[NigR]

Who owns the land that NigR has dug the new entrance on?

To put the record straight, I would like to point out that our dig was in an already existing cave, completely underground from the outset. We made no alteration to the land at the surface and no spoil was brought back to surface at any time, deliberately stacking it out of sight in the cave itself. Yes, I suppose technically speaking we should have asked permission to enter the cave but as there appeared to be no restrictions on access other than an old rusty corrugated sheet covering the entrance we simply did not bother. Apologies to anyone for any distress this lack of decorum on our part may have caused. 

 

[whitelackington]

Thanks for clearing that up Teabag ~ I appreciate it 

Who owns the land that NigR has dug the new entrance on?

More spefically, would I be right in assuming he (and the others) had the landowners permission to be there and dig ?

Ian

I have it on good authority that the landowner has said that Nig Rogers has neither sought nor gained permission from him to dig a new entrance to Draenen on his land.
Chris

It would be a shameful act if the control freaks sought to get the land owner to refuse access from this "new" cave, really spiteful.

 

[cap n chris]

Is it really the case that British cave diggers need the permission of the landowner* to extend known systems?

* Is it the landowner of the entrance land or the landowner of the land above the bit being dug who needs to be formally approached?

Also, if you are merely taking over someone else's abandoned** digging efforts, is it incumbent upon you to re-apply to the landowner (see above) regarding permission to continue the digging efforts?

The real answer(s) to the above questions might be of great significance to a large number of cavers.

** (a) with their blessing or (b) without them knowing

 

[graham]

Chris

I can point you at cases where the owner of the land over a cave (but of no entrances) has indeed been able to legally affect what went on underground in his property.

 

[cap n chris]

Doesn't really answer my...

substantive questions about landowner's consent.

 

[Ian Adams]

Who owns the land that NigR has dug the new entrance on?

To put the record straight, I would like to point out that our dig was in an already existing cave, completely underground from the outset. We made no alteration to the land at the surface and no spoil was brought back to surface at any time, deliberately stacking it out of sight in the cave itself. Yes, I suppose technically speaking we should have asked permission to enter the cave but as there appeared to be no restrictions on access other than an old rusty corrugated sheet covering the entrance we simply did not bother. Apologies to anyone for any distress this lack of decorum on our part may have caused.

Can I ask then, under what authority are the PDCMG are acting in their communication and probable action against NigR's dig as, prima facie, they have no dominion  over NigR unless he is a member ?

Ian

 

[graham]

Let's not tangle matters here. Anything that is done to a landowner's property needs their consent unless their is a supervening authority, as in compulsory purchase or a legal order to make good a breach of some regulation or other. The "right to roam" granted under CROW gives no rights to alter or modify anything. There is no right to dig. Legally there is no difference between the surface and the underground in this respect.

As far as the PDCMG is concerned, my understanding is that the administration of Draenen has been delegated to them by the landowner. If they are acting on his behalf then they would have a degree of jurisdiction over those caving on his land.

 

[NigR]

It would be a shameful act if the control freaks sought to get the land owner to refuse access from this "new" cave, really spiteful.

This may well already have been done. In a letter sent out to member clubs on Wednesday the Secretary of the PDCMG stated that "the landowner has been informed and is naturally concerned about individuals acting contrary to the current access agreement."

Also, if you are merely taking over someone else's abandoned** digging efforts....
** (a) with their blessing or (b) without them knowing

To put the record a little straighter, we began digging without the knowledge or consent of the previous diggers. So, even though the dig was long abandoned (and we knew those responsible wouldn't mind in any case), technically speaking you could say we were pirating. However, our efforts and subsequent success have since received the full blessing of the original diggers.

Can I ask then, under what authority are the PDCMG are acting in their communication and probable action against NigR's dig as, prima facie, they have no dominion  over NigR unless he is a member ?

The PDCMG have no authority whatsoever over me as an individual and they know it. My club, Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros, is currently a member but this may not be the case for too much longer. Even if we are not chucked out for being naughty boys, our representative attending today's meeting has a mandate to resign on the spot at any point if he sees fit.