Ogof Draenen survey

[Christian_Chourot]

I hand sewed mine to bind it with thick nylon, worked a treat. Needed to heat the spine in boiling water and press it afterwards to convince it to bend and be a book though!

 

[mrodoc]

I think the bound laminate idea is terrific . I have been laminating surveys for years but this is the high tech version. I agree with NigR that route finding without a survey is good training but in fact a combination of the two is what I would favour i.e. keep the survey in the bag and take it out when desperate . Just as well GPS doesn't work underground (yet?!!?) otherwise caving navigation would become a totally lost art plus there would be people falling down shafts left right and centre

 

[footleg]

I made a similar set of overlapping A4 laminated sheets for a trip to the Felix Trombe system some years back. Extremely useful for navigating in a complex system. I disagree that navigating without a survey is a good plan. Maybe for caves you plan to visit several times to learn the main routes, but not the best way to find your way to a location deep in a cave system you only get one or two chances to visit.

 

[Christian_Chourot]

I do prefer to find my way without a survey most of the time, especially in Wales. But it's nice to be able to work out what you've just done rather than have to do it all standing on the seats at swcc.

 

[caving_fox]

For me it depends if you are going to see what there is to be found, or whether you are aiming for a specific trip. If I'm just having a wander around and see what's there then a survey afterwards is fine. If I'm actualy trying to get to a specific location then unless it's a cave I've had the opportunity to visit several times recently, I'll need a survey with me - and even then I'll manage to get lost quite easily.

 

[Cave Mapper]

Surveys are good underground, they enable you to see more cave in less time. And you have less failed trips.

It's an old-school attitude that says you should learn your way around a cave system in the company of your more experienced club mates, and by implication you don't need a survey.

The modern sports caver should be visiting unfamiliar caves armed with no prior knowledge except a survey and a guidebook description, and should be aiming to bottom them (or do the through trip or whatever) on the first attempt, i.e. an 'on-sight lead'. That's always been my ethos in caving, its much more rewarding than playing follow the leader, or restricting yourself to caves that you are already familiar with.

 

[NigR]

Very commendable approach, most do-able if you live locally; however, I'd guess that if significant travel is involved then you'll be wanting a survey for route-finding.

Not sure why the distance travelled to the cave has anything to do with the approach adopted towards navigation once you are there. I don't use printed surveys underground when I visit caves in the eastern Pyrenees and the travel factor is much greater than anything you are likely to encounter in the UK. Works fine for me.

I agree with NigR that route finding without a survey is good training but in fact a combination of the two is what I would favour i.e. keep the survey in the bag and take it out when desperate.

This is a sensible approach and I would not want to put anyone off doing this. However, just having a survey with you won't prevent you getting lost and once you are lost just getting the survey out of the bag won't always help you find your way out again.

Surveys are good underground, they enable you to see more cave in less time. And you have less failed trips.

So, by definition, a successful trip is seeing as much cave as possible in the shortest possible time? Maybe in your world but definitely not in mine.

It's an old-school attitude that says you should learn your way around a cave system in the company of your more experienced club mates, and by implication you don't need a survey.

I'm not saying that you should necessarily learn your way around a cave with someone who knows the system already, in fact I agree that by just following someone else you will learn very little. Try going on your own or with people who have the same knowledge (or lack of it) of the cave as you do and see how you get on.

The modern sports caver should be visiting unfamiliar caves armed with no prior knowledge except a survey and a guidebook description, and should be aiming to bottom them (or do the through trip or whatever) on the first attempt, i.e. an 'on-sight lead'. That's always been my ethos in caving, its much more rewarding than playing follow the leader, or restricting yourself to caves that you are already familiar with.

An interesting view on ethics here, particularly the climbing analogy. To take it one step further, my own opinion would be that if you've had to actually use the survey to find your way (as opposed to just carrying it with you) then you haven't really done the trip cleanly at all (you've cheated) and should go back and do it again another day (without using the survey). Although I don't suppose you'd do that as it would take up too much valuable time that could be so much better spent putting another tick in your guidebook.

Just out of interest, Cave Mapper, do you ever go down caves that don't have guidebook descriptions or surveys to help you? Or don't they count?

 

[menacer]

To take it one step further, my own opinion would be that if you've had to actually use the survey to find your way (as opposed to just carrying it with you) then you haven't really done the trip cleanly at all (you've cheated)

Priceless... 

 

[Peter Burgess]

I think your point of view depends on whether you go underground to enjoy caving or to enjoy the cave. I am definitely of the latter persuasion. I get far more out of trips where I just explore where I want to, and take in the nature of the cave as I go, than when in a group that is determined to get to a particular spot by a particular route.

 

[Peter Burgess]

To take it one step further, my own opinion would be that if you've had to actually use the survey to find your way (as opposed to just carrying it with you) then you haven't really done the trip cleanly at all (you've cheated)

Priceless... 

I do agree with much of what NigR says, apart from this statement though. In order to 'cheat', then there has to be a rule or set of rules in place. As far as I am aware, there are no rules about using surveys to go caving!

 

[footleg]

I think your point of view depends on whether you go underground to enjoy caving or to enjoy the cave. I am definitely of the latter persuasion. I get far more out of trips where I just explore where I want to, and take in the nature of the cave as I go, than when in a group that is determined to get to a particular spot by a particular route.

Clearly we each go caving with slightly different motivations, but personally I get a great deal of pleasure from reading a map as I go, which in large complex cave systems is a challenge in itself (the map rarely matches the cave on the ground perfectly!). That way I can get to exciting looking places which I would not be aware of if I just when in to see what I could see. Original exploration is a different buzz altogether, and I don't think anything beats truly heading into the unknown in passage you have just opened up a way into for the first time.

I am curious NigR and Peter, do you take a selection of assorted tackle with you on your trips in case you encounter any pitches you did not know about?

 

[Peter Burgess]

I am sure NigR is a lot more adventurous than me, but it is always a good idea to have a few krabs, slings, and a length of rope to hand "just in case". If there is a pitch in an area of cave that we might come across, then of course we would go prepared to descend it. If we don't have the right kit to hand, so what? Find something else to do instead round the next corner! I have perambulations into Ogof Fffynnon Ddu in mind as I write this.

 

[Brains]

An onsite explore of Sands or Swan Quarry without a survey would be quite reasonable, but to do so in Box would be a different matter altogether. A careful "learn as you go" approach would undoubtedly lead to a thorough knowledge of the place, but if on a limited timescale then a survey will add greatly to the enjoyment, the areas and things seen, together with a reassuring certainty of your ability to return to grass from particular fixed points. After all, it is not always an option to phone for help once you realise you cant find your way out again.

As usual many good arguments for and against, but as a map maker and enjoyer of maps I like to have the survey with me. A really good map can be a better read than many a book in my experience, especially if you have a real world experience of (some) of the area represented.

 

[El Agreb]

Not sure why the distance travelled to the cave has anything to do with the approach adopted towards navigation once you are there. I don't use printed surveys underground when I visit caves in the eastern Pyrenees and the travel factor is much greater than anything you are likely to encounter in the UK. Works fine for me.

This thread did not start suggesting that the printed survey was going to be used underground.
You surely must have sought as much information as you could get before you headed off to the Pyrenees. Or did you spend years roaming Europe, obviously without a road atlas!, before you found a hole, that was worth the drive, to go down.  True dedication to your own ethics indeed if that was the case. A long trip back home if you find you need a 200m rope to get down the second pitch.

 

[hell little caver]

and back the origonal topic survey i like rob would like one as it's one of the reason i don't go to draenen as i don't know it and a servery would help!

 

[mrodoc]

The modern sports caver should be visiting unfamiliar caves armed with no prior knowledge except a survey and a guidebook description, and should be aiming to bottom them (or do the through trip or whatever) on the first attempt, i.e. an 'on-sight lead'.

My proudest moment was doing Trou du Glaz to Guiers Mort in one trip first time in the system. All I had was notes from Pierre Chevalier's book and a sketch map. A party who had taken a look at the Guiers Mort end said we would never do it. Mind you the pull throughs were a bit nerve wracking!

Surveys aren't the be all and end all. As I alluded to if you visit OFD and don't know it is multilevel reading the survey can result in you ending up in some very exposed locations.

 

[menacer]

Hellie theres a North south and central sheet version in the wessex library...
Now I couldnt suggest you photocopy that would be illegal so I wont.....
I have a copy too....there are a few about...
Carm..
Good to see you underground....(stus mine pics on facebook....)

 

[dunc]

They never had all these fancy surveys, topos and descriptions in the old days!!

Personally I take it or leave it as far as surveys are concerned when going underground - I sometimes take them or even descriptions for reference purposes but it's not essential. With some of the bigger systems it is nice to see after the trip where you've been, what you missed, what you could possibly do next time etc... Missing the Draenen survey from my collection, anyone got a spare one going??

 

[Christian_Chourot]

Easy solution: get a team, go and survey it, then we'll all be sorted.

Can't take too long, it's not very extensive is it?  :ang:

 

[dunc]

Can't take too long, it's not very extensive is it?

Couple hundred metres at most isn't it? :doubt: