Our new Inclusivity Coordinator

[The Old Ruminator]

As for the good Cap'n. He has taken this old chap on several trips and his awareness of my frailties has been exemploray. I do believe there are some cavers who have a particular dislike to paid caving instructors. I have a friend who was introduced to caving this way and she has done very well since. As for femail unfriendly club premises I belong to Chelsea SS and Wessex CC who both have very tidy up to date facilities. The Chelsea host older school parties of both sexes.

 

[andrewmcleod]

I think in *some* areas caving is very inclusive. I'm pretty sure that the fraction of LBTQ+ cavers in at least some student caving clubs is probably greater than that in the general population (just under 7% in the 16-24 age group, although there's at least some evidence it is higher in the University population than the general population so maybe they are just representative).

However, 18% of the UK population belong to a black, Asian, mixed or other ethnic group. One look around the crowd at a Hidden Earth should tell you we aren't even close to that. Some of that is probably due to the caving areas (Devon, Mendips, North Yorkshire at least) being less diverse than the average, but certainly not all of it (plenty of diversity in South Wales and Manchester/Sheffield).

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

There's never been any barriers stopping people from becoming involved.

This is a pretty ignorant statement. Maybe there haven't been any barriers for YOU, but there have been for countless others. In my roles as president of UNCC, Welfare Officer for CHECC, and Y&D for CNCC, I have spoken to a countless number of people with concerns that caving isn't for them - usually not because of the activity of caving itself, but because of arbitrary barriers around it. I personally, am lucky to have felt very included and supported by the student caving scene. The freedom to be myself there and level of acceptance was instrumental in helping me to overcome trauma and become a confident adult.

I know the student caving scene isn't perfect, and like anywhere there are inclusivity improvements to me made too, but I've definitely found the non-student caving scene to be somewhat less inclusive. As a queer caver I have felt uncomfortable in the past due to comments and attitudes made at caving huts, though luckily that hasn't happened for a while. It was actually the student caving community that gave me the confidence to accept myself and come out of the closet.

As a woman I did experience quite a few challenges at the start. This is changing, but a lack of advice and support around menstruating + caving led to a big learning curve with some pretty horrible experiences. I know of several people that have actually left the world of caving and never came back because of experiences like these early on in their caving.

And that's not even considering the countless barriers faced by cavers with disabilities, BAME cavers (I don't know if that's still the correct term to use, maybe Josh can advise?), etc etc. There's no doubt about the fact that barriers do exist. And in a world that is literally made for the cis-white-middleclass-man, we have a collective responsibility to break down those barriers. CNCC showing that they're committed to this is progressive (though it shouldn't be - it should be normal), and any backlash to this decision along with other things I've seen said on this forum only proves WHY an EDI officer is needed so much.

(I'm not expecting this message to stay up long, given the fact that the UKC mods removed the last response I saw to someone criticising EDI officers, while leaving the original post up, but maybe UKC can also do some reflection on how they might be facilitating exclusionary attitudes in caving)

 

[JoshW]

The important thing is not to aim to match the demographics of caving to that of the wider population. - now bear with me.

It’s important to understand reasoning behind why there might be a demographic difference, and try to minimise any barriers that may exist preventing the demographics mix from being closer. Once you understand reasoning (and this is why I’m looking for maximum input), you can start to make recommendations for change, tailored to your actual situation.

Change is a difficult word for many to deal with. There’s whole businesses devoted to just training ‘change management’ to enable people to enact change in the smoothest way possible.

I am not an expert in change management, I will make mistakes, I will try to be as transparent as possible in what I/the working group do.

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

The important thing is not to aim to match the demographics of caving to that of the wider population. - now bear with me.

It’s important to understand reasoning behind why there might be a demographic difference, and try to minimise any barriers that may exist preventing the demographics mix from being closer. Once you understand reasoning (and this is why I’m looking for maximum input), you can start to make recommendations for change, tailored to your actual situation.

Change is a difficult word for many to deal with. There’s whole businesses devoted to just training ‘change management’ to enable people to enact change in the smoothest way possible.

I am not an expert in change management, I will make mistakes, I will try to be as transparent as possible in what I/the working group do.

Why is 'change' a difficult word for many to deal with?

 

[JoshW]

Why is 'change' a difficult word for many to deal with?

Far too philosophical for this thread

 

[Badlad]

(I'm not expecting this message to stay up long, given the fact that the UKC mods removed the last response I saw to someone criticising EDI officers, while leaving the original post up, but maybe UKC can also do some reflection on how they might be facilitating exclusionary attitudes in caving)

You should PM me, to remind me, of the details of this as i find it hard to believe it is how you have said.

 

[Fulk]

Thankfully I've never seen 'men walking round largely naked in Nazi caps' in a caving hut (or outside of one, come to think of it) and I've heard no discriminatory comments in any club I've ever stayed in. As for discriminatory comments, FFS topcat – 'Why do old guys think it is ok to piss all over the seat then just walk away?'.

 

[PeteHall]

Just as a matter of interest, can you clarify what you are excluded from, and by whom? The "UK caving scene", as an expression in this context, is a little vague.

One example that springs to mind is the specific exclusion of commercial caving trips by the Charterhouse Caving Company (bear in mind that the CCC is formed from representatives of the main Mendip clubs, so it's decisions theoretically reflect the wishes of those clubs). The argument that it's really about protecting the caves from novices soon falls flat when they ban cave instructor assessments too. While the CCC has made some progress (youth caving), this has been hard fought and I'm pretty sure all commercial trips remain excluded.

There has also been significant hostility to commercial cavers in many clubs, considering them to be "selling out" the sport. A friend, who I shan't name, was forced out of his long-term Mendip club and had his leadership authorisation for a popular cave revoked due to setting up as an instructor. It was decades before this decision was eventually reversed. Attitudes have changed in this regard, but many instructors will have personal experience of these sorts of hostilities.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

One must consider that the protection of the cave environment is the top priority rather than making them accessable to all. Its probably right to exclude " novices " from certain caves for it was that way that the helectites in Shatter Cave were trodden on. I have no issue with paid instructors as long as their primary focus is in care and protection of the cave environment. Making caving open to all comers runs risks both to the cave environment and may also place others at risk from litigation. There is a lot of acceptance " flagging " in society today. Some issues like race and gender are better off being quietly accepted with no attached fuss. I must say that in my 60 years of caving I have never encountered an issue that required diversity or equality remediation. Most clubs are only too keen to attract new members of any race ,creed or religion. Quiet acceptance without making a fuss. We had a diving group called GLUG. Gay and Lesbian Underwater Group. Happily accepted in our sport and the only comment I heard was how tidy they left the bunkroom. Flagging annoys the tiny minority who have issues. My Town Council put a rainbow path though the town gardens. This to show " solidarity " with the gay community. Needless to say it has now had white paint thrown all over it. Why we just cant quietly accept that some people are differant than us I really dont know.

 

[royfellows]

"Quet acceptance" is something that I feel is fairly prevailent, until it becomes assertive, then the inevitable reaction. I always find people have a way of getting along with each other if left alone to get on with it.

 

[JoshW]

 

[hartfield_estate]

why should making those individuals that "take issue" comfortable take priority over the safety of people affected by their bigotry? The stakes are not remotely the same, being uncomfortable is not the same as being unsafe and unwelcome (others have explained more eloquently than I could that even if you don't believe anyone is unsafe and unwelcome in caving, it is actually possible for different people in different situations to have a different experience than you. Wild)

 

[royfellows]

Josh, head in sand is your opinion, I go by what I see in front of me not what I an told or what I 'read somewhere'. Aikido is an amazing melting pot for white, black and Asian people, I have wonderful friends. As far as orientations go, I do not know and care even less, they are my friends. It does seem that black and Asian are attracted to that art, probably less to other pastimes such as caving. In the end, its their choice.

Attracting more people into caving is a worthy aspiration and I wish you sucess. I want to see more people, particularly younger people, attracted into caving, martial arts, sports, whatever. I see not only improved physical fitness, but team spirit, self respect, respect for others and a lot of other worthy qualities. However, I feel that the initiative will achieve little in that direction but simply be generally perceived as another woke virue signal by yet another organisation. I hope that I am wrong, the proof of pudding is inthe eating as they say, so maybe 12 months down the pike we can have a report of its sucess or otherwise.

 

[JoshW]

Josh, head in sand is your opinion, I go by what I see in front of me not what I an told or what I 'read somewhere'

I.e. you only see the sand..

So I’ve seen and experienced negative behaviour. But this does not mean that all cavers are homophobic, sexist racists.

You’ve not seen or experienced any negative behaviour. This does not mean that there is no negative behaviours out there.

The answer is that there is negative behaviour out there. The task is then to find out a) how prevalent it is* and b) stamp it all out as any amount of discriminatory behaviour is unacceptable.

* this doesn’t affect how important it is, but it will affect how to effect change.

As I’ve said previously, I’m looking to get as many views as possible into the working group so that we can ensure that any work that comes out is as most effective as possible.

However, I feel that the initiative will achieve little in that direction but simply be generally perceived as another woke virue signal by yet another organisation

And this potentially proves just how important the role is, and I hope I can do it justice.

I will however implode if I hear the word ‘woke’ one more time.

 

[Fjell]

I have done a lot of change management and I will

I.e. you only see the sand..

So I’ve seen and experienced negative behaviour. But this does not mean that all cavers are homophobic, sexist racists.

You’ve not seen or experienced any negative behaviour. This does not mean that there is no negative behaviours out there.

The answer is that there is negative behaviour out there. The task is then to find out a) how prevalent it is* and b) stamp it all out as any amount of discriminatory behaviour is unacceptable.

* this doesn’t affect how important it is, but it will affect how to effect change.

As I’ve said previously, I’m looking to get as many views as possible into the working group so that we can ensure that any work that comes out is as most effective as possible.


And this potentially proves just how important the role is, and I hope I can do it justice.

I will however implode if I hear the word ‘woke’ one more time.

I have done a lot of change management and the pain involved is only bearable if you get paid a fat salary. 98.375% of the population hate change, and thus they come to hate you with a passion. You have no levers to pull to change peoples attitudes. It is not work, there are zero consequences. Outside of commercial training activity it’s a tiny group of people engaged in their hobby, usually just with a few friends. The sport has unusually strong working class roots, or used to in the North. The culture used to strongly reflect this. Things change slowly, but it does happen. Sometimes not for the best as there has been a drop in non-college cavers I think.

The only realistic way to recruit these days in any number is via college clubs, and they don’t tend to have any particular issues. Getting people off the street is more tricky. Young people are unlikely to want to hang out with a bunch of people mostly decades older than them unless they go with family. I know my kids wouldn’t, even if they can already do SRT. They want to play beach volleyball or go surfing. Can’t really blame them.

 

[JoshW]

I have done a lot of change management and I will

I have done a lot of change management and the pain involved is only bearable if you get paid a fat salary. 98.375% of the population hate change, and thus they come to hate you with a passion. You have no levers to pull to change peoples attitudes. It is not work, there are zero consequences. Outside of commercial training activity it’s a tiny group of people engaged in their hobby, usually just with a few friends. The sport has unusually strong working class roots, or used to in the North. The culture used to strongly reflect this. Things change slowly, but it does happen. Sometimes not for the best as there has been a drop in non-college cavers I think.

The only realistic way to recruit these days in any number is via college clubs, and they don’t tend to have any particular issues. Getting people off the street is more tricky. Young people are unlikely to want to hang out with a bunch of people mostly decades older than them unless they go with family. I know my kids wouldn’t, even if they can already do SRT. They want to play beach volleyball or go surfing. Can’t really blame them.

If the problem is only recruitment, I’m frankly a happy man, those are easier to come up with solutions for (whether they work or not is a different matter). My fear is the problem is culture or retention, which is a very difficult thing, particularly as you say in a recreational setting.

But morally it feels the right thing to be doing so here we are 😅

 

[Fjell]

If the problem is only recruitment, I’m frankly a happy man, those are easier to come up with solutions for (whether they work or not is a different matter). My fear is the problem is culture or retention, which is a very difficult thing, particularly as you say in a recreational setting.

But morally it feels the right thing to be doing so here we are 😅

This is different to what happens at Bendrigg et al obviously, which is a whole different agenda. Our kid even took some people caving in wheelchairs when he volunteered there.

 

[cap n chris]

This is a pretty ignorant statement. Maybe there haven't been any barriers for YOU, but there have been for countless others.

You are absolutely right and I apologise for the glibness; thinking more about it, the reason I know you are right is that I distinctly recall hearing from at least one "higher up" personage in the caving scene that applications for membership to their club were routinely subject to veto (he called it "black balling") if there were any character traits which the person had which was frowned upon by the self-elected illuminati. It actually wouldn't surprise me one jot if nothing has changed whatsoever and this is still routine practice. So, I stand corrected.

 

[cap n chris]

Hi Chris,
...
For example, how often do you hear phrases like ‘bender, queer’ etc used around huts. I have a worrying amount, if I was non-hetero, I’d probably struggle to feel at home in this environment.
...
As a final example, how many instructors do you hear of (bearing in mind instructors have the opportunity to introduce many times more people into the sport than any recreational caver) that take an anti-inclusive stance. This would probably prevent me wanting to get involved in the sport even if I’d had an amazing day out in wookey hole my local show cave.
...

Hi Josh,

I don't spend much time (if any) in club huts so I don't have insight into this; one of my principle instructors at work is fabulously and flamboyantly gay and I think very highly of him and his husband whom I see very often at work; we have an accessibility policy and have taken many people caving including amputees, partially sighted, deaf, etc., but did have to draw the line when a potential customer presented at the ticket desk in a wheelchair and had no hands, operating their chair with their wrist. Another approach which I recall being made to me in my professional role was to consider a triple amputee in a wheelchair. Clearly there are limitations.

I can certainly put my C20th "caving hat" on and easily imagine queer-bashing to be an article-of-faith among many caving clubs (perhaps all of them) back in, say, the 1980s; and racism was ubiquitous then too. The world by comparison is now so inclusive that it does beggar belief that inclusivity is still considered problematic but perhaps you have a better thumb on that pulse than I. My personal impression is that caving in the 2020s (by comparison to how things were) is a transformed world.