droid said:
Amy said:
Yeah 'tis why I say I'll stick with a micro in place of a stop. I have a dual hyperbar one, super easy to lock off (litterally two seconds) and prettymuch the size of a stop. I really do agree that one reason racks are not enjoyed over there is (no offence intented) the typical 5-bar petzl is a crappy rack. *I* wouldn't have fun on that thing LOL. If you don't see things like the BMS micro there....I can understand why with your rigging you tend to hate racks.
You are making some big assumptions there.
Racks are not hated over here. A significant minority of cavers use them, and used properly they are safe and convienient. Just like a Stop is.
And a 'crappy Petzl' (is it crappy because it's not American?) is far more suited to the average British caving situation than a monster 'bigger is better' American one. Which is why you don't see them this side of the pond.
Your comments don't ring true for British caving at all.
Well I was being slightly poetic with "hated". I know the majority of ya'all do not use racks because you don't like 'em for what you do which is fair enough.
Petzl rack is crappy because Petzl rack is crappy. It lacks a hyperbar, it lacks a half twist eye which is extremely helpful for J frames, it has too many bars in too short of a space
Petzl rack:
5 bars
11" frame (and remember J frames are measured to the tip of the eye, so useable length is shorter than this by at least an inch or two)
470grams
no hyperbar for easy lockoff and manouvers
Micro rack (the best/most versitile/easiest to use version: long frame dual hyperbar)
4 bars
490grams
10" frame (U frame the entire length is usuable, so full 10" usability here)
2 hyperbars, making lock offs and manouvers super easy (on a J-frame, a single hyperbar is sufficient but on a micro a second hyperbar is helpful because of it being a U frame)
You could of course get the shorter version not the long frame, and gain your few grams back, but you loose some versatility. Additionally, a micro will keep the device closer to you, and this closeness will aid in the rebelays and such manouvers whereas because of the J frame of a petzl it adds distance making these things more difficult. When I was using my frog system I trained in rebelays and all that jazz on my micro and it worked beautifully without much training neccesary. (My first rack was a micro...we definitly don't think "bigger is better", simply the very long drops we do *requires* bigger. And yes 600ft/183meters single pitch beats putting in rebelays to break it up :tease: )
@ Mike:
(1) Difficult to control: okay, this was a fair cop. Use the rope, not the handle, to fine-tune your abseil.
- Yes indeed, fine tune is from the rope, the section I didn't realize was you don't tune it *at all* from the stop it's "on or off" "all or nothing" for the stop itself. I was using it as more of a 3-part "off/medium/fast" and fine tuning with rope. Some are saying here this is wrong and it is "on or off". =)
And no one here thinks Europeans are unsafe using bobbins/stops. Although we do laugh at the French when we see them having two stops as their entire SRT kit basically...our vision of the French is rappel on one stop, get to a rebelay, rig the second below it and play this flip-flop game to get down, and to climb out just using the stops as their ascenders. And this, we laugh at. But as far as I can tell, the UKians laugh at the French too so perhaps this is mutual
SRT was invented here in TAG by members of our grotto nonetheless. So were racks. Original SRT was for our huge pits so it makes sense that as the new technique went abroad people adapted it to their own system of what they wanted. I was reading "Tales of Huntsville Caves" again the other day, a beautiful short book of the most known local caves and some of the history of the Huntsville grotto and caving here (this is the home of our National Speleological Society, after all!) written by William Varnedoe and Charles Lundquist, two of some of the biggest names in American caving and SRT. Really interesting and worth a read, it's super cheap to pick up too.
They write:
"The Huntsville Grotto developed many of the caving techniques used today. The geology of this area insures that about half of the nearby caves have vertical entrances. The evolution of vertical cave entry is a Grotto achievement. As mentioned in the story of Natural Well, Dr. Jones made his descent into the Well in 1927 using a 210 foot rope ladder, consisting of three 30-ft sections and two 60-ft sections. Dr Jones had commissioned an old sailor to construct these sections of rope ladder made with wooden rungs and one inch manila rope. He uses it to descend this and several pits in Alabama. After the Huntsville Grotto was formed, Dr Jones provided the then old rope ladders for use by the members. During their early years of cave exploration, the authors indeed did use these massive ladders for pit descents.
Later, steel cable ladders with metal rungs replaced rope ladders in cave exploration. Still later, Bill Cuddington came to the Huntsville Grotto in the late 1960's. He taught his innovated single rope technique (SRT). This method used a body rappel to descend and prussic knots to climb vertical pitches on a single rope in lieu of the ladders and rope for belaying...
Huntsville is a city of engineers, and Grotto members rapidly devised improvements in both the equipment and the technique of using just a single rope. One of the first mechanical ascenders used on a rope was in Natural Well by Jack Allan. Many different rappel devices were tested, but Grotto member John Cole, assisted by John Patten, invented the ultimate rappel device. He developed the Rack in 1966.
The rack has become a world standard for long rappels. John refused to get a patent and has bequeathed its safety and ease to all. In fact, not only American cavers, but cavers around the world have changed over to single rope techniques following the lead of these pioneers. The Huntsville Grotto is undeniably "The Father of SRT". "
