Over the Edge

[graham]

I doubt it, Graham, as Marbach's and Rocourt's 'Technique de la Speleologie Alpine' was published in 1973, and it documented more than a couple of years experience and technique development.

I would certainly bow to your superior knowledge. I know the first time I saw SRT in action was in Lost Johns at Easter '72 when the aforementioned Dr Standing used it to return up a pitch with OCL at the top bellowing "You've gone the wrong way"!

Happy days.

 

[Alex]

Lol Amy look what you started, p.s. I apologise for Lancliffe rather harsh response, he really likes being right lol, thats why I don't get on with him that much as I am often wrong lol. But I do agree with the point that American's tend to think everything is invented in thier country a point that we are just as guilty of normally lol. But yes  that guy may have invented the american version but not the worlds first, we didnt either, we just nicked it from the french (with amendments).

 

[langcliffe]

Lol Amy look what you started, p.s. I apologise for Lancliffe rather harsh response, he really likes being right lol, thats why I don't get on with him that much as I am often wrong lol.

I'm very sorry to hear that you don't get on with me, Alex. I guess that is something I will have to try to live with. The problem with the web that practically anything posted takes on a verisimilitude, and I'm sure that you wouldn't want people subsequently propagating incorrect information because of that. The Huntsville Grotto claim is a case in point - if it hadn't been disputed it would have become a 'fact'.

But I do agree with the point that American's tend to think everything is invented in thier country

I'm not sure that anybody has made that particular point before, but if that is your opinion then I will respect it as such.

 

[Alex]

I'm very sorry to hear that you don't get on with me, Alex. I guess that is something I will have to try to live with.

Well I just assumed you just did not like me very much from various posts and a certain event in the past I won't get into on here, I am sure that last sentance is sarcasim. I would prefer to get along with everyone but just sometimes that is impossible, people's personalities just clash I guess. 50/50 sort of thing.

Anyway I am going off topic as useual.

 

[langcliffe]

I do apologise if my words appeared to be sarcastic, Alex - no sarcasm was actually intended.

 

[droid]

Off Topic 


I think Amy's comments are based on a lack of 'Global View' shared by many Americans. Which explains the attitude Alex refers to.

The Petzl rack may well be 'crappy' for the sort of Sling a Rope Down techniques and ropes that Americans use, but it isn't made for that. It's made for European caving, which by dint of multiple rub points and inaccessability uses lighter and more flexible ropes and as many rebelays as neccessary.

I suspect that using an American standard type rack in a European context would lead to it being labelled 'crappy' too.

But like Langcliffe I'd be interested in hearing about Amy's qualifications, for rubbishing TWO pieces of Petzl gear that are pretty widely used here.

 

[Pete Brookdale]

Ahh it's better than Corrie!

 

[Mike Hopley]

The Simple of course has no handle so it would be the bite through the breaking crab round the back and over the top, which seems to take alot longer and requires more rope to lock off which may not be possible on tight rigging.

If the rigging is that tight, it's deficient. Fix the rigging.

Before anyone says the way I lock off is not a hard lock, I will say I have tested it many times the rope don't move, even on 8mm.

The potential issue with that lock-off is not that it could slide, but that it is less secure. Should the trailing rope flip over the descender, or feed through enough to slip over the handle, your lock-off falls apart.

For a really fast (yet secure) lock-off, the Petzl Freino is nice. Goes well with a Simple.

 

[Alex]

Okay Lancliff, your forgiven 

Now to Mike:

If the rigging is that tight, it's deficient. Fix the rigging.

Can't fix the rigging if it's in-situ or it's rigged that way due to lack of rope. Yes we all know that shouldn't happen but it can and does. Tighter rigging is safer rigging anyway. Reduced fall factors and all that. But I will agree its a minor niggle and for it to be that tight is rare but does happen. For example I once have had that the problem when the rope was snagged around a bulge of rock below around the corner out of sight and no amount of tugging would free it. Could not even get a soft lock on that one. Let me tell you passing the deviation below was fun! (could then free it once past deviation of course)

The potential issue with that lock-off is not that it could slide, but that it is less secure. Should the trailing rope flip over the descender, or feed through enough to slip over the handle, your lock-off falls apart.

For a really fast (yet secure) lock-off, the Petzl Freino is nice. Goes well with a Simple.

Aye am aware if lots of slack the lock can fall off. But as I am aware I always keep my cows tail in (as standard practice SRT anyway) when lowering my self back onto my descender. Never heard of a freino I will have to Google that one.

 

[And]

Huh that would be funny test...rig the same pitch American and Euro style with rebelays for three. Get three "best" Euro-climbers and three "best" American climbers. Race to the top! First team to get all three to the top wins!

Would that include putting the ascending gear on?

When I was digging trip in Indiana,  I was waiting in a chamber while someone was capping ahead along with a couple of the local cavers who used the frog system. We were bemused as we watched another guy take about half an hour to put his ropewalker thing on to exit the cave. The pitch was only about 15 metres too!

The frog system was obviously invented by the French, as it is named after them :spank:

 

[Amy]

Lol I think I will stay out of this while you European s fight I think perhaps though ya all missed where it did specify long rope rappels. I don't think anyone can dispute the superiority in a rack for that and that it and subsequent techniques was developed here because that's what we have! SRT is a catch all. There are many types as has been pointed out. Trust me I stand up for ya all and Alpine rigging a lot here because most folks have no concept of how different the caves develop elsewhere. And we do use rebealys and deviations here and have multidrops and all that. What gets more of an Alpine rigging we still use and prefer racks for because of their advantages. As I have stated lots of times...to each their own.

Ninjad....useing a ropewalker in such a short drop is funny. Acceptable as many only own one system but funny! Taking 30 min to put it on is even funnier. I kit up as fast as the froggers! I suspect experience might play a factor

 

[Alex]

or how cold your fingers are. Hence why I bought one of those omni gate things, now I am used to its far quicker getting on and off.

 

[Mike Hopley]

Aye am aware if lots of slack the lock can come slide off, but thats what me long cows tail is for lol.

Oh, I see -- approaching a rebelay. Well, at that point it doesn't matter how (or whether!) you lock off. There's nowhere left to fall.

In this situation I (mildly) envy Stop users, who can completely let go and have both hands free to clip in.

Tighter rigging is safer rigging anyway. Reduced fall factors and all that.

Up to a point. Rigging should also be easy to use; scrimping on rebelay slack is dubious economy. Very close rebelays (say, within 3 metres of the last one) should have doubled anchors anyway.

 

[cap n chris]

Never heard of a freino I will have to Google that one.

You've heard of an Omni, a Pantin, a Tibloc, a Ropeman, balertwine etc., though, surely?

 

[langcliffe]

I think perhaps though ya all missed where it did specify long rope rappels.

With respect, Amy, you specified a 135' abseil which you prefaced at one point as 'only'. Long rope rappels didn't come into it. Personally, I am quite happy to acknowledge the superiority of racks on long abseils; I am also happy to acknowledge the effectiveness of the SRT methods developed by the Americans for the descent of deep pits. Frogging up the S?tano de las Golondrinas would be a right pain...

I am sure that you don't really believe that one descent on a Stop with no training is a fair test of a piece of equipment which is used by thousands of people, and in the deepest and most arduous caves in the world?

I also hope that you acknowledge that the use of SRT in caves had it's origin outside of Alabama. The French in particularly should be given credit  for what they achieved from the 1930s onwards. Petzl himself was one of those pioneers.

 

[Fulk]

Has anybody got experience of using a Stop on really long descents? The longest free-hanging decent I've done with a Stop is ~100 m, which I didn't find problematic (best to wet the rope first, though  ).

 

[Alex]

According to the stop it self 100m is the max. The problem I face is latic acid building up in my arm, slowing my descent as I have to stop and shake off my rope hand. But maybe its technique.

 

[langcliffe]

Has anybody got experience of using a Stop on really long descents? The longest free-hanging decent I've done with a Stop is ~100 m, which I didn't find problematic (best to wet the rope first, though  ).

I once did the Main Shaft on a Stop (from inside the rift using what were then the red bolts). That was no problem, but we were using 9 mm rope (which meant that it took half an hour to get off the ground again). I also once Jib Tunnel straight down in a drought, again with no problem (but the rope was being well-wetted!).

I've now given up with the Stop. I adopted it in the early 80s, but I noticed that two of my caving companions seemed to get far smoother rides with less hassle using a Simple. Moreover, I did find pressing in the handle all the time hard work on longer pitches (this may have been because I broke my hand once, and it isn't as strong as it should be).

About six years ago, I bit the bullet and started using a Simple with a Freino. At first I used it on the most straightforward routes with a minimum number of re-belays and deviations, but I still found it most disconcerting, and wasn't happy at all. However, once I got used to the new disciplines, and could lock it off whilst in autopilot, I started to love it and now use it all the time. I do find, however, that Stop users sometimes fail to leave enough slack in a rope to allow me to hard-lock off...

I very occasionally find myself using the Stop again (e.g. when I have lent out my Simple), and I now find it clunky and clumsy. In particular, I find the handle gets wrapped up in bits of harness and rigging. I suspect that this is more because I have got out of the habit of using it, rather than being a fault of the descender itself.

 

[langcliffe]

The problem I face is latic acid building up in my arm, slowing my descent as I have to stop and shake off my rope hand. But maybe its technique.

I used to have the same problem, Alex. Strength may be an issue. Someone who is stronger won't be working their muscles to the same extent.

 

[paull]

I too started out with a stop but soon moved over to a simple as I found having to hold the handle in a pain, its nice to have a free hand so that you can push away from the water or to steady a decent
Im now training the wife to use a simple as she has only ever used a stop and she also struggles to hold the handle in.

Stops are good don?t get me wrong,  when people start srt its nice to know that if they cock it up then the auto brake  will at least slow them down before they hit the bottom  unless it?s a wet 9mm rope then the brake doesn?t seem to work at all as I witnessed once when a fellow caver relied on the brake alone and found himself laid at the bottom of a pitch shocked and dazed lucky for him it was one of the small pitches in swinsto

Personally I would rather use a fig8 than a rack on long decents, yes I know it would coil the rope were a rack would not