Over the Edge

[Mike Hopley]

PMI Max Wear Pit Rope http://onrope1.com/store/index.php?p=product&id=7&parent=43

Thanks! Here's a page with more specs.

That is indeed a very static rope; but only slightly more static than Beal Spelenium Gold. Comparison:

	PMI Max Wear Pit Rope	Beal Spelenium Gold
Stretch   ​	1.6% under 136 kg force	2% under 150 kg force, estimated 1.8% under 136 kg force
Weight per metre   ​	80 grams	55 grams
Diameter   ​	11 mm	9.5 mm
Static strength   ​	3,059 kg force	1,800 kg force

So we have lighter and thinner rope, but yours is tougher and stronger (and cheaper). Perhaps not a surprising result.

 

[Alex]

Nice, Amy sounds fun, that must be a deep pitch (pit) to require 2000ft of rope! As unlike us you do not use rope on rigging rebays etc, so I guess most of that rope is used vertically, with the exception of the traverses you mentioned.

I will be doing something on a similar scale with the potential of a 12 - 16 hr through trip next month, complete with bushwhacking and steep mountainous terrain in the south of france.

 

[Amy]

Yeah there is a bit of an entrance drop and then about a 20-30ft traverse that needs rigged. Other than that, dropping ropes!
Have fun in France! Pull downs always sounded fun (provided you rig in to the correct side...) I'll be doing my first this weekend and am looking forward to it!

Interesting on the Beal rope, I'll keep it in mind if we ever want anything thinner, thanks! One thing with the way we rig - we dont have (usually) the rebelays to put multiple folk on rope that way, so we tandom and triple climb. This is something the PMI is great for, I'm not sure if the Beal would do that? The static strength of PMI is much more than the Beal. I'd be curious to try it, the stretch probably isn't that much worse than the PMI Pit Rope (not the max wear) or the PMI EZ Bend Pit, which are other (less ideal impo) popular ones here. Well. I like the EZ bend, it's less cable-like and more rope-like, LOL.

 

[droid]

Doubt you'll be tandeming on the Beal, Amy. The safety Gurus would have a fit

 

[Mike Hopley]

One thing with the way we rig - we dont have (usually) the rebelays to put multiple folk on rope that way, so we tandom and triple climb. This is something the PMI is great for, I'm not sure if the Beal would do that?

Any of these ropes are "safe enough" with a two-person load, but we tend to think of this as an emergency rescue procedure, and not for routine caving.

For routine tandem / triple climbing, your PMI rope is a much better choice, I think.

 

[Alex]

Doubt you'll be tandeming on the Beal, Amy. The safety Gurus would have a fit

Don't stop the french from doing it!

 

[Brains]

Doesnt stop me from doing it...

 

[droid]

The French, and Derbyshire mine explorers....I rest my case

 

[Brains]

The French, and Derbyshire mine explorers....I rest my case

Most of the pitches I have tandemd on are in Yorkshire and France, and all in natural as far as I am aware but only as I havent had a chance yet to to some bigger mine shafts with two on the rope...

 

[Alex]

I have tandemed up Titan, that was not pleasant but mainly due to the rope being in the wrong place and rubbing painfully. So I prefer not to do, not because of safety but because it's hard work and well it hurts, if you are the guy above.

 

[ianball11]

ouch!

 

[Amy]

Hrm...if ya'all are just gonna basically tl/dr say it's because I dont know how to use a stop right that I dont like it, I'll tl/dr this and say you dont like tandoming "because ya dont know how to tandom right!"  :tease:

 

[langcliffe]

Hrm...if ya'all are just gonna basically tl/dr say it's because I dont know how to use a stop right that I dont like it, I'll tl/dr this and say you dont like tandoming "because ya dont know how to tandom right!"  :tease:

Nobody has said they don't like tandoming. May I suggest that you read what has been written?

 

[Brains]

I'll keep it short (dont want to end up tl/dr!)
Tandem above or below is ok, only painful if dont you adapt your style. Bounce and spin can be unsettling for some and narrows and rubs are bad news. Practice and enjoy the company and the reduced waiting

 

[Alex]

I assumed it was just my technique.

 

[Penguin]

Couple o' things...

Why use industrial rope access equipment and techniques for a charity abseil, when those doing the abseil are non-experienced or in-experienced in vertical ropework?  Stops are awkward for the untrained to use, additionally children or less strong people will struggle to depress the deadman handle fully, increasing wear on the rope and Stop.  What if they become fatigued to the point where they can no longer release the handle?  They're now stuck on the rope, requiring increased intervention to remove them.  Backup on an ASAP?  Those things can lock themselves on the rope unintentionally, requiring a bit of effort and knowledge to release - you have to release the tension to unlock the rolling cam.  Again people will get hung up requiring intervention on the rope or a releasable anchor system (doubling the amount of rope required).  A much simpler and safer way, as used by many (all?) outdoor centres and charity abseils and the like over here would be to use a figure-8/bobbin/rack on the abseil line and backup the abseiler by belaying them on a dynamic rope. 

Secondly, i completely fail to see any situation where IRT SRT is better than alpine SRT.  No point in spouting on about it being suitable for American caves - sure it works, but it's anachronistic and unnecessary.  I would suggest that alpine SRT would work equally well in your typical American pit, and be a lot easier to carry in. 

Long drops in a single hang?  You'll speed progression up by using regular rebelays.  The same goes for ascent.  Long drops on a non-rack?  Perfectly possible with the correct equipment - industrial rope access being another case where racks are not used on long drops. 

Rope rubbing over edges?  Slows down progression in both directions as you have to work more to manoeuver the descender or ascenders over the edge with increased rope weight below, or tandem climbers.  May require a 3rd ascender, increasing kit complexity and weight.  Use a rebelay or a deviation. 

Using lighter ropes with efficient and thoughtful rigging, then using bobbins or Stops or the like becomes possible.  Additionally you cut down the weight of equipment you need to carry to and from the cave.  You can rig deeper and further in pitches.  You can prospect and explore more efficiently.  You can travel and be on familiar territory. 

 

[Fulk]

Well, Penguin . . . . I've never been to Golondrinas, for example, but as I understand it by the time you're a few metres down, the nearest wall is "miles away", and it would be totally impossible to rebelay ? or, at least, to rig a rebelay would involve an enormous amount of faffing, hence the reason why they use a straight down 10000+ ft abseil.

I really don't know if Golondrinas is representative of American caves (albeit in this case S. American) but if it is, then I can see why they stick to the techniques that work for them in deep pits. (Speaking as a staunch advocate of European-style SRT.)

 

[bograt]

Couple o' things...

outdoor centres and charity abseils and the like over here would be to use a figure-8/bobbin/rack on the abseil line and backup the abseiler by belaying them on a dynamic rope. 

Agree with that, using figure 8 for novices, man at the bottom can control rate of decent (done it many times).

You talk a lot of sense Penguin.