Over the Edge

[Andrew W]

About six years ago, I bit the bullet and started using a Simple with a Freino. At first I used it on the most straightforward routes with a minimum number of re-belays and deviations, but I still found it most disconcerting, and wasn't happy at all. However, once I got used to the new disciplines, and could lock it off whilst in autopilot, I started to love it and now use it all the time. I do find, however, that Stop users sometimes fail to leave enough slack in a rope to allow me to hard-lock off...

I've never used a Freino so perhaps I'm missing something but why would the simple with Freino require any more slack to hard lock than a stop? Is it simply that stop users are not putting on a hard lock themselves before sorting out the next rebelay?

 

[langcliffe]

I've never used a Freino so perhaps I'm missing something but why would the simple with Freino require any more slack to hard lock than a stop? Is it simply that stop users are not putting on a hard lock themselves before sorting out the next rebelay?

A fair question. If you look at the diagrams on the Petzl specifications, you will see that locking off the Simple with a Freino takes an additional loop, as it is already through the braking part of the karabiner.

http://www.petzl.com/files/all/technical-notice/Sport/D04-SIMPLE.pdf
http://www.petzl.com/files/all/technical-notice/Sport/D09-STOP.pdf

Interestingly enough, I see from the diagram that I lock off somewhat differently than they recommend, which may make another difference. I take the loop round between the rope and descender as they do, and then take a bight through the main part of the karabiner, as is done with the Stop. I think that I found  taking the rope out of the braking part of the karabiner to be a pain.

 

[Andrew W]

Interesting diagrams. Their picture of a secure lock on a simple just looks like a tangle of spaghetti to me. The way you are describing your hard lock is exactly as I would have expected you to do it - you wouldn't need to do anything with the braking side of the krab.

The way I have always done a hard lock on a stop is pretty much the same - take the end of the rope initially between the up rope and descender then take a bight through the braking krab (which wouldn't be necessary with a Freino) and the descender krab then take the bight over the top of the descender. To me this seems to be fundamentally the same as a simple with Freino which is why I couldn't understand why the available rope would be any different.

Interestingly according to the petzl diagrams the way that I was originally taught means I should be dead! I position my braking krab immediately to the right of the descender krab attached to the harness maillon as shown in the 3rd part of figure 7(a) which they suggest can lead to the top of the stop catching in the braking krab - not something I've ever really considered before.

Their explanation of a hard lock on a stop doesn't seem to cover the use of a braking krab which if used would necessitate the use of the same additional loop as on a simple.

 

[langcliffe]

Interestingly according to the petzl diagrams the way that I was originally taught means I should be dead! I position my braking krab immediately to the right of the descender krab attached to the harness maillon as shown in the 3rd part of figure 7(a) which they suggest can lead to the top of the stop catching in the braking krab - not something I've ever really considered before.

Interesting - your way would seem to be the intuitive way, as there is less obvious clutter, and the hand is held lower and hence more comfortably. I can see their point, though. You might be better of with a Raumer Handy or something similar, which is too small for the descender to get caught in.

 

[Mike Hopley]

Their picture of a secure lock on a simple just looks like a tangle of spaghetti to me.

Yes, it certainly looks that way in the diagram; but really, it's simple and elegant. Try it!

[list type=decimal]
[*]Flip the rope over the descender (like a soft lock)
[*]Clip it through the braking spur (now there are two strands in the spur)
[*]Flip it over the descender again (another "soft lock")
[/list]

The overall action is that you wrap the rope twice around the descender (in the same direction), with a clip in the middle of the action. Flip -- clip -- flip.

Interestingly according to the petzl diagrams the way that I was originally taught means I should be dead! I position my braking krab immediately to the right of the descender krab attached to the harness maillon as shown in the 3rd part of figure 7(a) which they suggest can lead to the top of the stop catching in the braking krab - not something I've ever really considered before.

It can happen if a rebelay fails below you, causing the weight of the other caver to pull your descender into its braking krab. When the other caver gets off the rope, your descender remains stuck and you have a very fast abseil.

It also (very) occasionally happened to me in normal use -- such as when locking off.

Smaller braking krabs such as the Freino or Raumer Handy prevent this from happening.

 

[Amy]

Personally I would rather use a fig8 than a rack on long decents, yes I know it would coil the rope were a rack would not

  You can't even rig in a figure 8 on long descents, and it would burn right through it! Long rope is LONG, and HEAVY. Unless we have very different definitions of long...

Long rope: 200ft/60m PLUS, single pitch straight down no rebelays no deviations no /anything/. Just rope. 8 pounds/4.5 kg per 100ft/30m weight minimum, anything (water, etc) adds to that weight. You can't even lift up the rope hardly at all with 100meters. For a lot of long rope we use a haul system for slack to rig in and pass the lip, or utilize pigtails at least to get over the lip. Hence long frame racks so you can actually get the sucker rigged in, and using a French wrap because you cannot lock off the rack.

I think perhaps though ya all missed where it did specify long rope rappels.

With respect, Amy, you specified a 135' abseil which you prefaced at one point as 'only'. Long rope rappels didn't come into it. Personally, I am quite happy to acknowledge the superiority of racks on long abseils; I am also happy to acknowledge the effectiveness of the SRT methods developed by the Americans for the descent of deep pits. Frogging up the S?tano de las Golondrinas would be a right pain...

I am sure that you don't really believe that one descent on a Stop with no training is a fair test of a piece of equipment which is used by thousands of people, and in the deepest and most arduous caves in the world?

I also hope that you acknowledge that the use of SRT in caves had it's origin outside of Alabama. The French in particularly should be given credit  for what they achieved from the 1930s onwards. Petzl himself was one of those pioneers.

I was refering to the quote (aka "it") which got you all in a tizzy. 135' isn't long rope. We did undergo training first (although yes, I missed that it is "on or off" not "on, medium, off" which would aid the heat issue). I am certainly not against trying it again next visit. I am certainly against adapting it for my everyday use (whereas at one time I thought it would be a handy tool I see now why in no way would it work for what we do even our small pitches it would not be adventagous - which I have been told by many more experienced than I, and now I have witnessed more firsthand), and I have huge doubts over whether it could ever replace the use of my micro rack (even abroad, time will tell). And again, you missunderstand. SRT here means what SRT means to us. You call your SRT, SRT. We call our SRT, SRT. Rarely in everyday speak do we specify "IDR SRT" or "Alpine SRT". And this is what I was pointing out to be the confusion that got ya'all in this crazy tizzy and freakout in my last post. No one is trying to re-write history here.

 

[cap n chris]

8 pounds/4.5 kg per 100ft/30m weight minimum, anything (water, etc) adds to that weight.

Gosh! - interesting info. Yes, your rope is chunky-as-fcuk! - Beal Unicore Caving rope is 4.5 kg per 100m.

 

[paull]

Personally I would rather use a fig8 than a rack on long decents, yes I know it would coil the rope were a rack would not

  You can't even rig in a figure 8 on long descents, and it would burn right through it! Long rope is LONG, and HEAVY. Unless we have very different definitions of long...

nope just on rope it seems 

 

[langcliffe]

You can't even rig in a figure 8 on long descents, and it would burn right through it! Long rope is LONG, and HEAVY. Unless we have very different definitions of long...

Long rope: 200ft/60m PLUS, single pitch straight down no rebelays no deviations no /anything/. Just rope. 8 pounds/4.5 kg per 100ft/30m weight minimum, anything (water, etc) adds to that weight. You can't even lift up the rope hardly at all with 100meters. For a lot of long rope we use a haul system for slack to rig in and pass the lip, or utilize pigtails at least to get over the lip. Hence long frame racks so you can actually get the sucker rigged in, and using a French wrap because you cannot lock off the rack.

I did a 500' pitch in 1973 on a Clog figure of 8, and several over 300' on the same expedition, all without deviations and re-belays. People used to regular do Gaping Gill Main Shaft using a figure of 8 (although one did admittedly die) because it was all we had at the time. As I indicated in an earlier post, I will happily concede that if I had known about racks I would have used one.

And again, you missunderstand. SRT here means what SRT means to us. You call your SRT, SRT. We call our SRT, SRT. Rarely in everyday speak do we specify "IDR SRT" or "Alpine SRT". And this is what I was pointing out to be the confusion that got ya'all in this crazy tizzy and freakout in my last post. No one is trying to re-write history here.

Fair enough - two nations divided by a common language. When I say SRT, I mean SRT. If I wanted to refer to a specific style I would modify it with an appropriate description. When you say SRT, you mean the type that you are used to. However, that being said, the techniques developed by Chevalier et alia wouldn't now be recognisable as either the American rope-walking style or the European Alpine style. The point that was being made  was that Europeans were abseiling down shafts in caves, and prusiking up them in 1934. Obviously techniques have evolved since then to according to local culture and needs.

 

[Fulk]

I'm with langcliffe on this (nomenclature, that is) . . . SRT is SRT. To say differently is a bit like saying 'A MIG isn't really an aeroplane, it's a Russian aeroplane, while a Boeing isn't really an aeroplane because it's an American aeroplane'; no, they're both planes.

 

[Mike Hopley]

I have huge doubts over whether it could ever replace the use of my micro rack (even abroad, time will tell).

A Stop certainly could replace your rack for Alpine-style SRT. Whether you would prefer it is a totally different question.

Your rack would definitely work okay in Alpine-style SRT. Many people (including me) think it is less suitable than a bobbin (Stop / Simple / something similar), because it's heavier, bulkier, and arguably less convenient for on-rope maneuvers.

Similarly, a Stop will work with most American-style SRT. It may be much less suitable than a rack, due to the rope weight on long abseils with fat rope. The rack will also give a smoother abseil. The best way to use a Stop on thick rope is to C-rig it, if you're comfortable doing that (it goes faster and you don't need to press the handle).

A Stop will not work with rope thicker than 12 mm, because the rope doesn't fit inside the Stop. And 12 mm is really pushing it.

Training is an important consideration. Even with deep Alpine-style SRT, the rack you know may be better than the Stop you don't.

 

[droid]

'Crazy tizzy and freakout'?

No, just people with a better knowledge of SRT history than you, Amy.

 

[Alex]

Long rope: 200ft/60m PLUS, single pitch straight down no rebelays no deviations no /anything/. Just rope. 8 pounds/4.5 kg per 100ft/30m weight minimum, anything (water, etc) adds to that weight

That must be expensive not to mention bloody heavy to carry to the cave, I guess most of the holes are next to the road lol. To be fair 8 pounds is more like 3.5kg (but it's still heavy). May I ask out of interest why you use such thick and heavy rope, due to rope rub? or is it just that its the best thing suited to a rack?

 

[langcliffe]

May I ask out of interest why you use such thick and heavy rope, due to rope rub? or is it just that its the best thing suited to a rack?

Subpopulus Hibernia summarised the reasons quite well in his posting on the previous page.

 

[bograt]

What I would like to know is how many biggish pitches our colonial cousins encounter after they have descended the big free hanging pit at the entrance, how much of this "cable" can they carry for any distance underground, could they bottom the Berger using their method ?
I do confess, however to never having used a stop or shunt, a figure of eight being my weapon of choice for pitches under 100ft, and a rack over that, mind you, we where using hawser lay ropes and bouncing and spinning was part of the fun!

 

[Amy]

Long rope: 200ft/60m PLUS, single pitch straight down no rebelays no deviations no /anything/. Just rope. 8 pounds/4.5 kg per 100ft/30m weight minimum, anything (water, etc) adds to that weight

That must be expensive not to mention bloody heavy to carry to the cave, I guess most of the holes are next to the road lol. To be fair 8 pounds is more like 3.5kg (but it's still heavy). May I ask out of interest why you use such thick and heavy rope, due to rope rub? or is it just that its the best thing suited to a rack?

It is extremely static rope, the only thing more static that was made was Highline, which is no longer manufactured. Maximum durability and lasts for a very long time, extremely smooth rappel, no bounce when you climb (even frogging), very little rope stretch. I know there is more i'm forgetting...And no, stuff isn't "right next to the road". This coming Saturday for example I will be hiking up to Surprise pit, we will be carrying close to 2,000 ft of rope with us (7 people), bushwhacking (uh...we have forests with decent underbrush here, I remember Dales being grassy) up steep and rocky and forrested terrain for about a mile, about 700ft elevation change in that mile (and iirc from the topo, around 600 of that is in a half mile) so a pretty good slope. It is an in-cave pit with some traversing on narrow ledges and stuff like that to get to it. This is nothing compaired to getting up to Ellisons. Or next year El Cap, etc. So uh...no. We hike good clips to our caves. Most vertical stuff can expect 45min+ of hiking to it, usually uphill, usually prettymuch bushwhaking it. And trying to not get bitten by copperheads LOL. (Antivenom is so expensive hospitals only carry one of six doses usually. They also like to fall into pits so first down always has to check landing zone well).

...I am kinda hoping being the only female going I can get out of carrying one of our 600ft ropes hehe. But I usually end up carrying rope...which is okay if it's coiled right it's easy enough to carry. I always go into these things not wanting to carry the rope but carry the rigging instead or something...and then they ask someone to grab a rope...and I pick it up from habit. Ah well at least it gives me cred. I'm really the only female vertical caver here right now so I often feel like I have something to prove. :/ Usually I feel like I have to be twice as good to be considered half as much. I am hoping to (after getting this long rope stuff down and mastered) get alpine srt down a lot better. Believe it or not, even now it's one thing I know more about than most the guys I cave with do. But if I did some of your deep stuff, that would (oddly) give me lots better cred here. Plus it would be fun of course =) It's really too bad I dont have cash right now while I"m basically jobless, it is the only time I could take a chunck of time and travel...if I had money. Would be cool to come caving over there for a month or two.

At least I'm excited to be on the Surprise team, it has been closed since way before I started caving and was recently re-opened last month. I will be the first female to be down there since then.

 

[Mike Hopley]

It is extremely static rope, the only thing more static that was made was Highline, which is no longer manufactured.

Can you link to an example of the rope you use (preferably something like a product page, with specs)? I would be interested to learn about it.

Typical ropes used over here:

[list type=decimal]
[*]9 mm -- good compromise of lightness and toughness
[*]10 mm -- heavier but harder-wearing and stronger; possibly better for rescue
[*]8 mm -- very light; demands flawless rigging and an experienced team
[*]9.5 mm low-stretch -- expensive but less bouncy
[/list]

 

[Amy]

PMI Max Wear Pit Rope http://onrope1.com/store/index.php?p=product&id=7&parent=43

 

[cap n chris]

Typical ropes used over here:

[list type=decimal]
[*]9 mm -- good compromise of lightness and toughness
[*]10 mm -- heavier but harder-wearing and stronger; possibly better for rescue
[*]8 mm -- very light; demands flawless rigging and an experienced team
[*]9.5 mm low-stretch -- expensive but less bouncy
[/list]

You forgot this brilliant stuff, Mike:

8.5 mm low-stretch caving rope -- a superb combination of lightness, toughness, suppleness and low-stretchiness

 

[Mike Hopley]

You forgot this brilliant stuff, Mike:

8.5 mm low-stretch caving rope -- a superb combination of lightness, toughness, suppleness and low-stretchiness

Not forgotten -- just making a short list.

But yes, that is splendid rope.