P8 - Idiot's Leap Rope (& lost gear)
- Thread starter Edd
- Start date
droid
Active member
Mark said:Dan said:I think a piece of iron ladder would be great there along with a relacement iron ladder which some lemon took from the second pitch.
Yes I quite agree Dan, the idiots that take iron ladders out of everywhere are interfering old women
Absolutely agree.
Most of the caves with ladders in are/were hardly in 'pristine' condition. Like you I get fed up with pious purists. If you don't want to use the aid, then don't, but give others the choice.
We're not all bloody heroes
paul
Moderator
Fulk said:
That was it.
Mind you, there is a P bolted "pull-up" arrangement (similar to the one up to Miller's Chamber" in Eldon Hole) so with a 20 metre rope, you don't need the ladder.
The ladder was a bit of a pain as well as the rungs were quite close to the rock in a few places and getting size 11 wellies on wasn't easy. I prefer the rope option.
Chocolate fireguard
Active member
Partly.Fulk said:
The first couple of times I went into Oxlow there were fixed ladders on pitches 2, 3, 4 and the up pitch to Pilgrims Way. This was the mid 60s and I believe they were put in when the connection with Giants was being sought. I didn`t go back for about 20 years and the first 3 ladders were gone.
The Pilgrims Way ladder was taken out more recently (10 years?) at about the same time as the P8 ladder. I am happy to be corrected by anyone who remembers more details - I have never kept a log of my trips, something I now regret.
I have sometimes wondered why the Comic Act cascade ladder survived the purge. Perhaps because it isn`t actually "fixed"?
There is never going to be agreement on fixed aids in caves because different people use different caves and bits of caves for different things, the 2 extremes being perhaps showing how hard they are and taking unsuspecting friends on trips that are well beyond their abilities by nursemaiding them every step of the way.
My opinion is that a pitch on a trade route that is mostly tackled from below, and where a fall is likely to result in injury, should be bolted and fitted as a pulldown or be left rigged eg the climb from Eating House. Rather than the odd bit of rope a nice bespoke length of stainless chain and shackles would be better. I don`t know who would do it - perhaps the people who fitted the stainless pull through rings above Crab Walk and Base Camp chamber.
I can`t get upset about the Idiot`s Leap rope. It was removed by accident and will be replaced.
The Bung ladder allows a couple of good trips to be done more safely in higher water conditions.
The Surprise View ladder allows one of the most impressive easier trips in Derbyshire to be done with the minimum tackle by a wide range of people. Many people who are not, and perhaps never will be, cavers have seen one of the best streamways in the country when without that ladder they would never have done so.
Yes, I do know what reaction that last paragraph is going to get.
r_walklate@hotmail.com
New member
Wicked history there even if you think it may not be completely accurate. Coming into caving in the 'srt' era, are you talking about a ladder similar to one you would use for cleaning the windows, obviously I know it would probably be steel etc but I'm sure you get the idea?!?!?! Or were there wire ladders used still today just not as the 'number 1' technique??
SamT
Moderator
Steel ladders - like the one on Comic Act now.
IIRC didn't Crewe take the Iron ladders out of Pilgrims and P8 (your right - about 10 years ago) on the basis that they'd put them in originally and therefore felt they had a liability for them.
DCA put the pull through rings in BC chamber and the climb down into the crab walk.
why not take your own like this bloke - http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=68c_1233095344
IIRC didn't Crewe take the Iron ladders out of Pilgrims and P8 (your right - about 10 years ago) on the basis that they'd put them in originally and therefore felt they had a liability for them.
DCA put the pull through rings in BC chamber and the climb down into the crab walk.
why not take your own like this bloke - http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=68c_1233095344
r_walklate@hotmail.com
New member
That would of been pretty impressive to look at let alone climb!!
paul
Moderator
r_walklate said:
The ladders in question were solid metal ones of the sort which are used on railway signals, etc. They used to be much more common once. They would have been put in place by cavers over the years in some locations and were a welcome way of being able to tackle pitches without having to bring extra gear.
Unfortunately as they wore out or became damaged, they would be removed and not replaced, probably with the modern fear of possible litigation should an accident occur, rightly or wrongly.
Chocolate fireguard
Active member
That would account for the Comic Act one still being there.SamT said:
Did Crewe put in the other 3 ladders in Oxlow? I understood the connection was made by the Eldon.
Chocolate fireguard
Active member
How about Titan? Us oldies would really appreciate that.Dan said:
Roger W
Well-known member
Brains
Well-known member
AFAIK the original P8 upper series ladder was replaced with a new one made by the CCPC. Not long after this P bolts came on the scene and much talk of litigation and liability ensued. To make life less complicated for us we removed our ladder once the area was P bolted. DCA has I believe taken on care of such fixed aids as the DMM Eco hanger ("P" bolts), the abseil point in the roof of crabwalk and other bits and bobs. These are then tested and certified on a regular basis.
I believe the Peak Cavern aids are slightly different in that they are paid for out of the access fee and maintained by a different group to the DCA
The Oxlow ladders were removed at various times as they became unsafe, swept away by pitch collapse or outdated by P bolt pull through/ups as mentioned above.
Should another group or individual wish to come forward and pay for and maintain other fixed aids off thier own back then that would be a matter for the wider community to agree on. In recent years new non-DMM P bolts are beginning to appear (various trade names but things like the Batinox resin bolt system), placed by persons unknown of unknown skill and are probably un checked or maintained. A similar situation to the old self tapping spit anchors that preceeded the P bolts...
If an annoymous caver(s) replaced the ladder I daresay the weight of caver opinion would decide its longevity - in the past certain self appointed people have taken it on their own to chop what they deemed unwarrented fixtures, only to have them replaced in a war of attrition, with the cave being the main victim.
I believe the Peak Cavern aids are slightly different in that they are paid for out of the access fee and maintained by a different group to the DCA
The Oxlow ladders were removed at various times as they became unsafe, swept away by pitch collapse or outdated by P bolt pull through/ups as mentioned above.
Should another group or individual wish to come forward and pay for and maintain other fixed aids off thier own back then that would be a matter for the wider community to agree on. In recent years new non-DMM P bolts are beginning to appear (various trade names but things like the Batinox resin bolt system), placed by persons unknown of unknown skill and are probably un checked or maintained. A similar situation to the old self tapping spit anchors that preceeded the P bolts...
If an annoymous caver(s) replaced the ladder I daresay the weight of caver opinion would decide its longevity - in the past certain self appointed people have taken it on their own to chop what they deemed unwarrented fixtures, only to have them replaced in a war of attrition, with the cave being the main victim.
droid
Active member
Brains said:
Reminds me of the Dave Elliot 'redbolt' saga of several decades ago.
I've always treated any 'fixture' that I haven't placed myself on its merits: if it looks safe enough I'll use it, if not I'll avoid it. It would be nice to be given the choice though, without the intervention of self-appointed 'experts'.
Mind you, climbers are much worse over fixed aids. An abseil descent of Cautley Spout in the Howgills, along with the string of waterfalls above it, makes an entertaining outing on a nice sunny day. Bolts have been placed here and there, but the ones at the top of the Spout itself (a sheer 30-m descent) were 'chopped' some time ago by disgruntled climbers.
The thing is, Cautley Spout is (evidently) a good ice climb . . . when conditions are right, but conditions only come good once in a blue moon ? it's not a regular climbing ground. Furthermore, if the conditions were such as to make climbing there feasible, the chances are that the bolts would be buried under several inches of snow and ice anyway!
On one occasion we went into the shop at the head of Wasdale, where I expressed the opinion that a minor gorge we'd explored ? off the beaten track, and not in a climbing area ? would benefit from being bolted up as a pull down; the reaction from some climber in the shop was what you might expect if you'd said 'God f*** the Queen' at a Buck House garden party.
The thing is, Cautley Spout is (evidently) a good ice climb . . . when conditions are right, but conditions only come good once in a blue moon ? it's not a regular climbing ground. Furthermore, if the conditions were such as to make climbing there feasible, the chances are that the bolts would be buried under several inches of snow and ice anyway!
On one occasion we went into the shop at the head of Wasdale, where I expressed the opinion that a minor gorge we'd explored ? off the beaten track, and not in a climbing area ? would benefit from being bolted up as a pull down; the reaction from some climber in the shop was what you might expect if you'd said 'God f*** the Queen' at a Buck House garden party.
