Proposal for BCA to officially declare caves non-smoking

[Peter Burgess]

Of what? You need to be more precise Graham. A law or something that has not been legislated for yet?

 

[whitelackington]

We have arrived at a sad state of affairs when legislation is seen as the only way to change behaviour deemed by the majority to be a nuisance and potential hazard. In days past common sense and common courtesy, encouraged by good education, were usually sufficient to change public habits. Flatulence is probably the next target.

Give me one example.

Round here, nobody is taking any notice of the law which wants you to stop using mobile phones while driving.
Peer pressure, banging on peoples widows and telling them to stop does not work, also this law is being ignored.
I feel like winging a brick through their windows with a messge tied to it, maybe they would then get the message.
How come the coppers are not nicking them?

 

[Peter Burgess]

As far as I know, and I stand to be corrected, there is no law that would prevent me from breaking wind in a confined public space in the presence of others. However, the vast majority of people do not do so, because they understand that it is not a nice thing to do. The only exceptions are young children, parents with young children who make out it was one of the children and not them, and possibly the majority of cavers.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Or, if you wish to be more serious, walking into a confined public place with a bad cold, and sneezing over everyone. Most people don't do it, unless they are young or badly educated. That is a potential hazard to public health but I bet there is no law against it.

 

[andymorgan]

We have arrived at a sad state of affairs when legislation is seen as the only way to change behaviour deemed by the majority to be a nuisance and potential hazard. In days past common sense and common courtesy, encouraged by good education, were usually sufficient to change public habits. Flatulence is probably the next target.

Give me one example.

No drinking zones in towns.

 

[Dep]

We have arrived at a sad state of affairs...
Flatulence is probably the next target...

More realistically what about car-exhaust fumes?

If passive smoking is as lethal as it's made out to be then what about the fumes from cars, especially in cities?
No one questions smog related health issues in big cities.

The volume (or more correctly; mass) of waste gas from someone smoking a single cigarette is insignificant compared to that from a typical car engine run for the same period of time.

So when are the righteous-whiners going to start going on about that too, to the point of legislation?
If cars are ok then passive smoking issues are a crock of shit.
Conversely; if passive smoking is as bad as it's cracked up to be then I suggest that all you non-smokers who also drive cars go away and have a quiet think about your position!

Perhaps the BCA would like to set in motion a voluntary code of practice to have us all walk/cycle to caves?

 

[Dep]

...
How come the coppers are not nicking them?

In our local area there is now a stated no-tolerance policy - they are actively stamping down on it as it gets the figures up!

I never used my phone whilst driving even before the ban simply because I don't like driving one-handed - no other reason.
It's no less safe than fiddling with the stereo or a sat-nav - or God forbid, having children in the car!!!

 

[anfieldman]

It's no less safe than fiddling with the stereo or a sat-nav - or God forbid, having children in the car!!!

Please clarify 'having children in the car'
Have children as passengers in the car with you?
Your wife / partner giving birth in the car with you/ her driving?
Your and your wife/partner concieving children whilst driving?
I would say mobile phones were far safer than last one, about as safe as the second and not as safe as the first.

 

[Elaine]

Round here, nobody is taking any notice of the law which wants you to stop using mobile phones while driving........
I feel like winging a brick through their windows with a message tied to it, maybe they would then get the message.

Likewise.

 

[anfieldman]

This thread has gone a bit off track. Quite a few people including myself have had their say. I would think a poll would be a good idea but as I did not start this thread I will leave it up to Chris to decide.

 

[Les W]

Perhaps the BCA would like to set in motion a voluntary code of practice to have us all walk/cycle to caves?

I'm fairly sure BCA would like to do nothing of the sort.
There are far more important issues than this which are a much more productive use of volunteers time.

Although there is a need to walk to most caves in Yorkshire  and Scotland  and some of the Welsh caves...
...oh and Sandford Levvy and Mangle Hole. 

 

[Dep]

I'm fairly sure BCA would like to do nothing of the sort.
There are far more important issues than this which are a much more productive use of volunteers time.
...

Absolutely. But I love it when a thread degenerates into nonsense - often in itself a response; if those here don't take it seriously or openly ridicule it then that kind of answers the OP.

 

[Dep]

It's no less safe than fiddling with the stereo or a sat-nav - or God forbid, having children in the car!!!

Please clarify 'having children in the car'
Have children as passengers in the car with you?
Your wife / partner giving birth in the car with you/ her driving?
Your and your wife/partner concieving children whilst driving?
I would say mobile phones were far safer than last one, about as safe as the second and not as safe as the first.

haha! very good. Horribly ambiguous.
Seriously I could cope with the second (in fact more or less have), and have a brave attempt at the third but sadly it's the first case I'm talking about and that is a real distraction - "he's hitting me" - "she's making noises" - "he's pulling faces"... slap - scream - no doubt a familiar scenario to anyone stupid enough to have more than one (any) child!
WTF was I thinking! 

 

[Jagman]

Putting being obnoxious aside (its in my nature)
I'm sure I am not alone when I say that this is simply another regulation/rule that is out of place.
Many of us take simple pleasure underground of being free to do as we chose how we choose.
For most of us rules, regulations and un-necessary guidance are just not welcome.
It doesn't need a policy, if one is imposed it will be ignored by those who feel inclined anyway.
It will not make any difference to me wether a non smoking policy is in place or not, simply because the places I visit are not under the purview of the BCA anyway.

 

[whitelackington]

Perhaps the BCA would like to set in motion a voluntary code of practice to have us all walk/cycle to caves?

I'm fairly sure BCA would like to do nothing of the sort.
There are far more important issues than this which are a much more productive use of volunteers time.

Although there is a need to walk to most caves in Yorkshire  and Scotland  and some of the Welsh caves...
...oh and Sandford Levvy and Mangle Hole. 

And Triple Hole and Coral Cave and Chardswell

 

[graham]

Many of us take simple pleasure underground of being free to do as we chose how we choose.

Except that you are not completely free to do as you choose, how you choose. In every environment that you visit you are constrained by rules, regulations and guidelines - written or unwritten, explicit or implicit - that exist to aid the smooth running of society and protect its members and the wider world.

You like visiting mines and you like burning vegetable products underground. OK, try visiting Box Mines and setting fire to the wooden cranes and see how soon the rest of us are hunting you down.

 

[cap n chris]

I know Graham's making a point, by extension, but please don't set fire to anything in Box (including fags) `cos one of the concerns of English Nature (EN/NE) was/is that such occurrences (and the risk of a larger fire being set underground) would be detrimental to the bats using the site.

Dep and Jagman's point about this being a non-topic due to people ignoring the spirit of the plea does not stand since many laws are broken but this fact doesn't undermine the reasons for their introduction. Just because people rob banks it doesn't follow that such a law should be repealed because it is ignored.

 

[anfieldman]

Many of us take simple pleasure underground of being free to do as we chose how we choose.

Except that you are not completely free to do as you choose, how you choose. In every environment that you visit you are constrained by rules, regulations and guidelines - written or unwritten, explicit or implicit - that exist to aid the smooth running of society and protect its members and the wider world.

You like visiting mines and you like burning vegetable products underground. OK, try visiting Box Mines and setting fire to the wooden cranes and see how soon the rest of us are hunting you down.

Quite so. It goes without saying that there are unwritten rules which we as cavers follow (well most of us do). I do not feel I am free to break off the nearest pretty formation to display in my lounge, nor to pinch someones ladder rigged on the '20' or even to take a crap somewhere in a cave and leave it there. I would also feel that if I was still a smoker I would not be free to smoke in restricted area such as a cave where it would effect the enjoyment of other cavers who pass by.
So it is plainly clear that we are not free to do as we choose. Unless you are selfish.

 

[paul]

This whole subject seems a pointless argument.

As Les has already said: it just isn't going to happen.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Many of us take simple pleasure underground of being free to do as we chose how we choose.

Except that you are not completely free to do as you choose, how you choose. In every environment that you visit you are constrained by rules, regulations and guidelines - written or unwritten, explicit or implicit - that exist to aid the smooth running of society and protect its members and the wider world.

You like visiting mines and you like burning vegetable products underground. OK, try visiting Box Mines and setting fire to the wooden cranes and see how soon the rest of us are hunting you down.

Quite so. It goes without saying that there are unwritten rules which we as cavers follow (well most of us do). I do not feel I am free to break off the nearest pretty formation to display in my lounge, nor to pinch someones ladder rigged on the '20' or even to take a crap somewhere in a cave and leave it there. I would also feel that if I was still a smoker I would not be free to smoke in restricted area such as a cave where it would effect the enjoyment of other cavers who pass by.
So it is plainly clear that we are not free to do as we choose. Unless you are selfish.

We are free to do as we choose in many ways. A huge majority of us choose to respect the comfort of others.

We are not free to do as we choose when it comes to unlawful activity like removing stal from a legally protected site, or from one that isn't protected come to that, as this would be simple theft.