Response to BBC Ultimate Caving...

[Peter Burgess]

Kate made it clear on at least one, if not more, occasions that although she knew she was safe, she didn't feel safe. The incident I recall was at Dolly Tubs pitch (I think).

I thought the program gave the impression that caving is a challenge that can be met safely, and can be enjoyed with the right mental approach (wrong approach = panicking in the Long Crawl, right approach = 'pulling oneself together and getting on with it' also in the Long Crawl).

Stage managed and cunningly edited perhaps, but it could have been a lot, lot worse!

 

[Stu]

About the only good thing I can say about this program is that the filming was of a very high standard.  Unfortunately the excellent visuals were undermined by the irritating fads of currently fashionable editing techiques.  This generally means rapid cutting to create a chaotic blur of images many of which are shaky or out of focus. 

What I disliked most about the film was its dishonesty. 

This was a story with a pre-conceived plot, a contrived 'character arc' dependent upon fixed notions about the nature of caving.  The 'script' goes something like this....  caving is extreme, caving is dangerous, it is grotty, claustrophobic and terrifying.  Normal people do not do it.  We will take a person cast on the basis of their unsuitability for this activity.  We will confirm caving to be all the negative things that we assume it to be.  The presenter will go on an emotional journey through extreme fear and hardship but will culminate in a moment of revelation that provides some justification for the activity - thus completing the 'character arc'.  We need our characters to confirm the illusion - to talk about being entombed under tons of rock - we do not want them to ever say 'this is easy', 'this is fun', - that is not part of the story.  But they are professionals - they understand the angle and the emotions the director needs from them - and the editor is there to ensure that it's all 'on message'. 

Swildons is there to be difficult - that's it's function in the script - so we see no walking passages - we see no formations.  And the Sump 1 section is quite deliberately edited to deceive - to create an illusion that the sump is much longer than it is in reality.  No formations in Swildons because the script says they are to come in the next cave - Dan yr Ogof.  But of course the Long Crawl has to be longer and tighter than it really is.  Truth is irrelevant - only the story and the 'arc' matter.  The prejudices of the producers, and of the viewing public, remain intact and are confirmed - it has to be true - it's on the telly - caving is claustrophobic, dangerous, grotty and masochistic.  The power of the media is used once again to undermine and corrupt the reality of caving and even on this website their efforts are appluaded. 

Give me strength.

Since you put it like that I hated it.... NOT!

32D for goodness sake

Andy... of course it "had to send a message". But so what? It can be difficult, it can be nasty, it's often miserable. But when you have a presenter talking about what a privilege it is to be somewhere... well, how often is that message portrayed on TV? There was a real respect for where they were, how they'd got there and what it was all about.

Of course there was a story, you of all people should know why that's important. We weren't duped and neither have the public. I suspect from going on other forums that this episode has probably been the best.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Andy... of course it "had to send a message". But so what? It can be difficult, it can be nasty, it's often miserable. But when you have a presenter talking about what a privilege it is to be somewhere... well, how often is that message portrayed on TV? There was a real respect for where they were, how they'd got there and what it was all about.

My point is that the message is contrived even before the camera rolls.  Yes of course she comes out with all that stuff in Titan - it's in the script and Titan is meant to be the star of the show.  Dialogue like that was required at that point in the 'story' and Kate, being a true professional, delivered it. 

A few weeks ago, in response to a decline in UK caving, the Try Caving event was held.  I'm not sure that this program will do much to recruit new cavers but it could have done if the script had been different - if the producer's hadn't set out with their own fixed ideas and agenda.

There is a very topical debate at the moment about the integrity of TV and this program, to my mind, shows not only the inherent dishonesty of producers but also our readiness to accept their dubious practices with a shrug of  'well, it could have been worse.'

 

[Rob]

...The 'script' goes something like this....  caving is extreme, caving is dangerous, it is grotty, claustrophobic and terrifying... ...We will confirm caving to be all the negative things that we assume it to be...

Mate, these are positive things to most caver's!

 

[Stu]

Ok. I'm listening. How should it have been done better?

On the question of our readiness to be fobbed off, I'm less sympathetic. I really don't think it was non representative. It was tagged Ultimate not nice steady bimbly trip.

 

[Peter Burgess]

If the producers wanted to be truly dishonest they would have made it seem like she did the Titan climb on the first trip there. To then say it took three days to set up the lighting in advance of the second trip made me appreciate all the more what efforts were put into making this programme.

 

[Rob]

My point is that the message is contrived even before the camera rolls.  Yes of course she comes out with all that stuff in Titan - it's in the script and Titan is meant to be the star of the show.  Dialogue like that was required at that point in the 'story' and Kate, being a true professional, delivered it. 

A few weeks ago, in response to a decline in UK caving, the Try Caving event was held.  I'm not sure that this program will do much to recruit new cavers but it could have done if the script had been different - if the producer's hadn't set out with their own fixed ideas and agenda.

There is a very topical debate at the moment about the integrity of TV and this program, to my mind, shows not only the inherent dishonesty of producers but also our readiness to accept their dubious practices with a shrug of  'well, it could have been worse.'

Do you want an entertaining documentary with a exciting storyline, or a boring news report with not much to talk about? Most trips i go on are not exciting enough to put on TV, even with the best filming effects/editing. They made a great program especially with only about 3-4 days in each place.

Also, just to backup the organisors here, numberous times while filming in TITAN we wanted to do things, like put the main lights on before the were in place (for shots from the bottom and stuff), but they insisted that we waited so their reactions were REAL.

If the producers wanted to be truly dishonest they would have made it seem like she did the Titan climb on the first trip there. To then say it took three days to set up the lighting in advance of the second trip made me appreciate all the more what efforts were put into making this programme.

Or send them down TITAN on that second trip to save their long journey in through Speedwell again.

 

[kay]

Oh, and when is the repeat on pleez???

Repeat of "Ultimate Climbing" was Sat evening, but we've got rugby instead 
The wet one from Wednesday is repeated midweek sometime, so they may be repeating "Caving" next weekend, or maybe not at all.

 

[cap n chris]

Btw - I will now admit that the photo of me from 1969 (ish) was taken at Swildon's. Those trees looked oh so familiar 

Do I win anything, then?

 

[Stu]

Btw - I will now admit that the photo of me from 1969 (ish) was taken at Swildon's. Those trees looked oh so familiar 

Do I win anything, then?

Ms Humble's bra...

 

[kay]

Overall, however, I think it was a superb addition to the "good news" stories about caving and, despite the effusive adjectives, should do wonders to fire up people who will want to have a go - it should certainly help to filter out the faint-hearted! 

As one of the faint-hearted, I reacted quite strongly to the suggestion that I should be filtered out 

But I can see your point -  saying 'caving is easy' and getting people in to something they can't cope with is a bad idea, for them and for the rest of the party.

On the other hand, I was put off for years because I knew I wouldn't be able to handle the verticality. It was a transformation in my life to find out that there were caves I could go in to without having to scare myself, and I just wish I'd known that a few decades earlier.

The programme was good, and all respect to Kate Humble who was clearly pushing herself to do things she really did not feel happy about doing. But it was a shame that the final scene showed them running off with an air of "thank goodness we'll never have to do that again". So sad - to be shown that world, and not wish to return. It wouldn't have made such good television for them to come out and 'I can't wait to go back', but would it have been better for caving, for Kate and Steve themselves and for people in general? And was that finish just another manifestion of the opnion that there is something a little bit odd about people who can enjoy themselves doing something active out in the countryside?

 

[martinr]

I have just been shopping in Kendal, and in one of the shops I overheard the shop assistant (age about 16?) telling the shop owner how good Ultimate Caving was. He was full of enthusiasm about caving, thought the show was brilliant, and wants to try caving as soon as possible.

A possible recruit for Kendal CC?

 

[whitelackington]

I wonder if Kate fancies a go @ extreme base jumping

extreme sports fans are to be allowed to base jump from the top of towers in Malaysia to commemorate its 50th year of Independence from us

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6962321.stm

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Ok. I'm listening. How should it have been done better?

Casting - it was very deliberate to choose someone with just the right level of emotional fragility to guarantee the footage that was delivered.  If Kate had turned up and said 'oh yes, caving - I really fancy that' she would not have got the job.  The best films about caving have allowed real cavers to communicate their passion with a minimum of the usual scripted cliches. 

 

[Stu]

Ok. I'm listening. How should it have been done better?

Casting - it was very deliberate to choose someone with just the right level of emotional fragility to guarantee the footage that was delivered.  If Kate had turned up and said 'oh yes, caving - I really fancy that' she would not have got the job.  The best films about caving have allowed real cavers to communicate their passion with a minimum of the usual scripted cliches. 

People would surely just say - "Of course they like it, it's what they do. But what of me? I'm normal, I'm emotionally fragile, the thought of caving just turns me to tears". To those people this is another way of turning their heads to the possibility of what they might achieve. Besides, two of the best films about caving IMHO were Sunday at Sunset Pot (hardly a vote winner!) and the GG anniversary (which was a little bit staged to say the least).

People tune in to things because they want to be like their heroes; they fancy having a go. No offence but we don't have any sexy superstars to show to the media. It's quite sad in a way that the first two shows had a novice, and a lead who had as much air time as the presenter. In the caving one we had Moose for about 15 seconds calling him a poof (!!) and Tim and Pam for even less time.

 

[Stu]

I suppose we have Nigel Atkins... but the swear word count would have been in the hundreds! 

 

[barrabus]

Casting - it was very deliberate to choose someone with just the right level of emotional fragility to guarantee the footage that was delivered.  If Kate had turned up and said 'oh yes, caving - I really fancy that' she would not have got the job.  The best films about caving have allowed real cavers to communicate their passion with a minimum of the usual scripted cliches. 

Which is why Moose's bit was the best....

Poofs and pickle.

 

[Cookie]

The programme was good, and all respect to Kate Humble who was clearly pushing herself to do things she really did not feel happy about doing. But it was a shame that the final scene showed them running off with an air of "thank goodness we'll never have to do that again". So sad - to be shown that world, and not wish to return. It wouldn't have made such good television for them to come out and 'I can't wait to go back', but would it have been better for caving, for Kate and Steve themselves and for people in general? And was that finish just another manifestion of the opnion that there is something a little bit odd about people who can enjoy themselves doing something active out in the countryside?

My sentiments exactly. The whole program was generally brilliant except the last line where Steve says he'll never do it again. If I could change anything I would change that.

 

[potholer]

Well, I couldn't really fault it for not being what it wasn't intended to be, and I don't think it was meant simply as an advert for caving.

Like in the climbing programme, the limited time did mean that a deal of stuff is left out, so there's no more than a few seconds shown of surface training, etc, and you're left wondering just how much preparation was being done between trips, but I assume the bias was towards having continuous action.

 

[AndyF]

I thought it was really excellent...

Lighting was excellent, choice of caves was smart. I think it was a credit to the people involved and showed caving in a positive light....

I really enjoyed it. 10 out of 10

The only depressing point is to think that Kate Humble has SRT'd Titan and I haven't........