cavemanmike
Well-known member
I usually carry a couple of pulley's on an srt trip cos you never know and there's no weight in them
Ian P said:Just to hopefully clarify.
"Self rescue" meant as a group.
I understand individually we can quite often get out of some tricky situations.
Equipment wise I was more thinking about assisting up pitches. (Whilst agreeing with Bob about other items).
Completely agree about more serious issues such as broken bones etc. Call out cave rescue.
Thinking more of much simpler incidents.
As a "Litmus test" how about:-
In a small group you have descended the small pitch from Valley entrance into the streamway. You have used a ladder and lifeline, waist belay and bowline tied around your waist.
Someone sprains their ankle, they can crawl but not climb a ladder.
The only option (??) is to call for help.
Are you sat at the bottom of the pitch thinking:
a) No problem, cave rescue like to come out and It will be no problem. I will not feel embarrassed telling my peers about it.
Or
b) Feeling a bit embarrassed, wishing you had a bit of extra kit so as a team you could all get out under your own steam.
RichardB1983 said:Kenilworth said:RE the OT:
Do we as humans have the responsibility to make sure we bave the equipment/knowledge to deal with problems in life? Caving is no different than taking a bath or riding a motorcycle or picking apples. We ought to take care of ourselves as best we reasonably can. Sometimes we need help, and hopefully there will be someone to help us when that time comes.
At least here in the UK, in an accident in a typical home, a motorcycle accident, an accident picking apples etc. - an ambulance could be with you in less than 20 minutes. The target response time for a life-threatening condition is just 8 minutes after a call.
In a cave it's very different. It could take a couple of hours for a member of a party to reach the surface to raise the alarm in the first place - or worse if caving solo and a relative has to call out based on a call-out time. Then there's the time taken for cave rescue to assemble and reach the cave entrance - plus more time needed to reach the casualty underground. Then extracting the casualty could take several hours. All in an environment where it's easy for hypothermia to set in - especially if the casualty isn't able to move for themselves very easily. If you aren't in a position to self-rescue or keep an immobile casualty warm yourselves, t hen a minor injury underground could be life-threatening.
Cap'n Chris said:Ian P said:Just to hopefully clarify.
"Self rescue" meant as a group.
I understand individually we can quite often get out of some tricky situations.
Equipment wise I was more thinking about assisting up pitches. (Whilst agreeing with Bob about other items).
Completely agree about more serious issues such as broken bones etc. Call out cave rescue.
Thinking more of much simpler incidents.
As a "Litmus test" how about:-
In a small group you have descended the small pitch from Valley entrance into the streamway. You have used a ladder and lifeline, waist belay and bowline tied around your waist.
Someone sprains their ankle, they can crawl but not climb a ladder.
The only option (??) is to call for help.
Are you sat at the bottom of the pitch thinking:
a) No problem, cave rescue like to come out and It will be no problem. I will not feel embarrassed telling my peers about it.
Or
b) Feeling a bit embarrassed, wishing you had a bit of extra kit so as a team you could all get out under your own steam.
That would be an exceptionally easy self rescue, provided anyone in the group had even the most basic coaching regarding how to solve it, with no additional or specialist equipment than you would already have to rig it (e.g. rope, ladder, carabiner x 2).
How serious does an incident have to be, or become, before the matter of trespassing becomes less important than someone's ultimate well-being, or even their life?Dave Tyson said:We didn't want to call the rescue as we shouldn't have been there
Dave
Kenilworth said:Agreed. An easy self-rescue. Even substituting "common sense" or "foresight" for "coaching". Calling for rescue in a case like this would be the equivalent of calling for roadside assistance because of a flat tire... which happens all the time. Many drivers and many cavers, especially vertical cavers, take no responsibility for themselves and depend on the "trip leader" or cave rescue to resolve minor incidents. In such cases cave rescuers ought to make it clear to the "victim" that they are unqualified and should be ashamed of themselves.
Cave_Troll said:The AA man eventually had to use a sledge hammer to free the seized wheel nut.
alastairgott said:At university this was typically a late second term and third term topic. So (I guess) within the first year of someone's caving "career". Unfortunately, non university cavers tend not to have their lives segmented by these terms, so how is it best to introduce these topics?
paul said:Kenilworth said:Agreed. An easy self-rescue. Even substituting "common sense" or "foresight" for "coaching". Calling for rescue in a case like this would be the equivalent of calling for roadside assistance because of a flat tire... which happens all the time. Many drivers and many cavers, especially vertical cavers, take no responsibility for themselves and depend on the "trip leader" or cave rescue to resolve minor incidents. In such cases cave rescuers ought to make it clear to the "victim" that they are unqualified and should be ashamed of themselves.
Cave rescue in the UK is carried out by cavers acting on support of the Police who have the primary responsibility for inland search and rescue. Cave rescue is all about helping others who need help, and usually only other cavers can render that help. Luckily we have relatively few call-outs in the UK, especially in comparison to Mountain Rescue.
There is a tradition of not passing judgement on the reasons which ended up with a rescue team being called out in case it would deter someone inf the future from calling out for help when they really need it.
droid said:Paul meant *public* criticism.
CRO are pretty good at putting people's hats on straight about their failings, from what I've heard.