"Self" lifelining up ladders

[paul]

I'm with Cap'n - why people still use ladders is beyond me even for small pitches. The thing that gets forgotten is what you do to get yourself out of the total ladder failure situation.

So you have rigged your ladder, you rig a rope next to it. You self life line down, while self life lining up, the ladder totally breaks and your left dangling on the rope. What do you do? Because of the ladder you didnt bother to bring the rest of your SRT kit to self rescue. Yet if you had brought all your SRT kit why did you use a ladder? If your solo caving or everyone is at the bottom still your (all) in trouble. Hence in my view ladders create a false sense of security and life lining ladders an even worse sense of security.

I'v used my croll (I know its not recomended) to travel up a rope while climbing old miners ladders up a rise. I concluded to myself at the time, its better then nothing and I could actually stop for a break and sitdown.

I agree with your points about the drawbacks of self-lining. However, the theory of combining ladders and self-lining is that since the ladder is used for ascending and the rope only is normally weighted while abseiling, you needn't rig the rope as carefully and have deviations or rebelays etc. as you would with "pure" SRT.

Also in the case of a cave like Giants Hole, if you are doing the round-trip via the Crabwalk and returning via the Giant's Windpipe and the traverse above the Crabwalk (that is without descending Geology Pot), the only gear you need is a 10m ladder for Garlands Pot (which is relatively near the entrance) and lifeline.

Having a party fully equipped with SRT kit (which is a pain in the Crabwalk!) just so that the 6 metres or so of Garlands Pot can be descended at the beginning of the trip and then near the end of the trip doesn't make much sense (although I'm sure people do this regularly).

In fact I would say that Hillocks Mine (another Peak District location), which has two short pitches, is actually more awkward using SRT as opposed to ladders.

On long pitches SRT is the way to go (althogh I did do Notts Pot on ladders many years ago!) but ladders do have their place in some caves on short pitches.

 

[Geoff R]

.
. .... err  people,  could I ask we all return on topic ??  :chair:   

I was only asking what people use to self lifeline up ladders, what they carry for self rescue.

Do people actually use full SRT kit - Im doubtful.  shrug
Does anyone use just a belt, jammer (and maybe a spare HMS for emergency - which they are also likely to have abbed down with) or perhaps a little more, perhaps an improvised harness, perhaps adding a cowtail ??   

 

[Peter Burgess]

Looks like Geoff hasn't got his answer yet. To save further questions, yes, there is a site which Geoff and I both visit occasionally where we believe the quickest option for getting in and out is to stick a ladder down, and self-line. The top of the shaft is not very spacious so messing about with a personal lifeliner is awkward. When doing a full-on SRT trip here, we found it took substantially longer to get everyone up the shaft than it did using ladders. When you have a limited amount of time during an evening trip, and quite a few people wanting to get underground, the fastest method for entry/exit is important. Also, some on the trip might not be experienced in SRT, so in order to accommodate as many individuals as possible, we have the option to allow some to climb the ladder with a lifeliner at the top, while others who have the gear can get out on their own. Makes sense now?

 

[Stu]

Geoof got at least one answer that stayed on topic!

 

[Stu]

Further more, how do you at this particular site descend? What gear are you carrying? How have you been mitigating a ladder failure/hanging on rope situation so far?

 

[Peter Burgess]

How have you been mitigating a ladder failure/hanging on rope situation so far?

It is a couple of club ladders we use here. They are cleaned and stored properly, and inspected for damage/wear. Likewise the belay is checked before use. It is either a well secured scaffold pole wedged across the top of a Milton-pipe type shaft, or a stout piece of angle, bolted into the side of the shaft, depending on who rigs it. I tend to use the bracket for the ladder, and the pole for the rope, backed up to another bolt.

 

[Stu]

How have you been mitigating a ladder failure/hanging on rope situation so far?

It is a couple of club ladders we use here. They are cleaned and stored properly, and inspected for damage/wear. Likewise the belay is checked before use. It is either a well secured scaffold pole wedged across the top of a Milton-pipe type shaft, or a stout piece of angle, bolted into the side of the shaft, depending on who rigs it. I tend to use the bracket for the ladder, and the pole for the rope, backed up to another bolt.

What personal gear do you carry re: ascent/descent?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Speaking for myself only, I have full SRT kit with me, (unless I have accidentally left a bit at home  :-[), since I don't organise the trips, and come prepared for whatever has been laid on.

 

[Stu]

Speaking for myself only, I have full SRT kit with me, (unless I have accidentally left a bit at home  :-[), since I don't organise the trips, and come prepared for whatever has been laid on.

So, speaking for yourself; what option had you in mind re: original post?

 

[Peter Burgess]

I usually am fully kitted up, run the rope through my chest jammer, climb the ladder cos it is easy and quick, but have the option to switch to prussicking if I need/want to. Yes, I realise that in the highly remote situation that the ladder fails, I would be hanging by only one point of attachment but that is surely no different to having someone top line me. With the hand jammer close to hand, I can switch to SRT if I choose to. Geoff didn't need to post his question here if he wanted my answer, so I guess he wants a range of opinions from those he probably deems more experienced than me.

 

[Geoff R]

Hi  Peter,  thanks        Indeed I should now explain.  Im very much learning -  Im trying to get a wide view of peoples thoughts to find in the general circumstances Peter described,  the minimum acceptable kit for myself and others;  to reduce away from my full SRT set up and to possibly wean a limited number towards something other than full ladder life-lining, esp bearing in mind the time aspect problem on ascent and of course taking into account the degree of training/skills needed and safety. (I come from the position of either a. full lifelining or  b.  full SRT). 

I tested a few things the other night - ways I would not normally use but wanted to test for completeness - and Im personally at the stage of being unhappy to ever consider using just a belt to self lifeline and equally unhappy to ever connect an ascent device (jammer) direct to the "side" of my waist, whatever harness arrangement is involved (shown as an option in a certain well known publication). I also conclude any self lifeline jammer should be on a long cowtail (arranged for minimal shock) to give free rope directly in front of you, if the ladder fails.  Finally we concluded a big Alpine Butterfly knot tied just under the jammer was one apparently good option to make a foot loop, (solving various matters). 

Obviously being very interested in others views, I did not want to influence anyone by my thoughts or details .....  Ho bxxger,  and now I have 

 

[Geoff R]

Ho and yes a lifeline already prepared for emergency lower is already well noted

 

[andymorgan]

How about an italian hitch?  :-\ May be difficult to climb a ladder and keep your slack in, however in a tight pipe when you can brace against the wall it may be easier. It has the advantage that should the ladder break you can just abseil down. The problem could be keeping  hold of the rope should the ladder just break.

I'm not an expert, what are other's thoughts on this, is this viable?

 

[Dep]

How about an italian hitch?  :-\ May be difficult to climb a ladder and keep your slack in, however in a tight pipe when you can brace against the wall it may be easier. It has the advantage that should the ladder break you can just abseil down. The problem could be keeping  hold of the rope should the ladder just break.

I'm not an expert, what are other's thoughts on this, is this viable?

Yes, it's the minimalist - simple option.
And with any sort of abbing rig you must simply drill it into your brain to never let go with your right hand - whatever happens.

This is a reasonable (IMHO) balance between simplicity and basic safety.

Geoff: Belts aren't meant to be comfortable - they're only there to save you from immediate death - with the implicit assumption that you will be able to recover quickly - tie ABK in the rope - make big loop - stand in it - safe enough now to plan next move...

 

[Stu]

Hi  Peter,  thanks        Indeed I should now explain.  Im very much learning -  Im trying to get a wide view of peoples thoughts to find in the general circumstances Peter described,  the minimum acceptable kit for myself and others;  to reduce away from my full SRT set up and to possibly wean a limited number towards something other than full ladder life-lining, esp bearing in mind the time aspect problem on ascent and of course taking into account the degree of training/skills needed and safety. (I come from the position of either a. full lifelining or  b.  full SRT). 

I tested a few things the other night - ways I would not normally use but wanted to test for completeness - and Im personally at the stage of being unhappy to ever consider using just a belt to self lifeline and equally unhappy to ever connect an ascent device (jammer) direct to the "side" of my waist, whatever harness arrangement is involved (shown as an option in a certain well known publication). I also conclude any self lifeline jammer should be on a long cowtail (arranged for minimal shock) to give free rope directly in front of you, if the ladder fails.  Finally we concluded a big Alpine Butterfly knot tied just under the jammer was one apparently good option to make a foot loop, (solving various matters). 

Obviously being very interested in others views, I did not want to influence anyone by my thoughts or details .....  Ho bxxger,  and now I have 

Well if it's simplicity then running a hand jammer straight off a harness - configured with the 'biner through the top eyeholes. You don't actually need to tie any knots for footloops. Make a loop, hold the two bits of rope tight, stand up, weight the jammer and repeat. That's the up option. Down can be done like this in reverse but is tiresome.

 

[Stu]

p.s. I tried the "not wanting to influence" approach... doesn't work! I almost when replying to you wanted to express opinion; now I know why you're asking it's simpler. Not your fault, it's the way of these things.

 

[Geoff R]

Yes,  thanks Stu,  its a problem to know how much to say, so as not to influence the answer, but in hindsight ( a wonderful thing) I think your right

Well if it's simplicity then running a hand jammer straight off a harness - configured with the 'biner through the top eyeholes.

Does anyone else do this  ?

How about an italian hitch?  :-\ May be difficult to climb a ladder and keep your slack in, ..................... It has the advantage that should the ladder break you can just abseil down. The problem could be keeping  hold of the rope should the ladder just break.

 


Anyone other suggestions or comment ??
Anyone any experiance using just a "belt" and jammer - my quick test suggested this was not nice .... ?? 

 

[Stu]

IMHO belts are what you carry your lamp pack on!!

You could supplement it with a short sling to form a basic sit harness. The jammer and top hole configuration although possibly superceded by "better" bits of kit, is still a viable and safe (when, like all things, done correctly) option.

With my method you could have as a minimum: belt, sling, jammer, 'biner (oval), descender plus 'biner. You wouldn't have cowstails (how do you approach pitch head?); you wouldn't have a back up on descent; if the ladder broke you would still be able to ascend but not change over very easily to descent (though you probaby would never need to).

If you start to add any extra bits of kit becuase the margins are all very edgy, then IMHO you'd be better to SRT. But hopefully, some of this has answered your question!!!

 

[cap n chris]

Anyone any experiance using just a "belt" and jammer - my quick test suggested this was not nice .... ?? 

I wouldn't be in the slightest surprised if someone using just a belt and jammer to self-line up a ladder would experience broken lower ribs if/when the ladder snapped under load. It would be interesting to replicate the impact force experienced by a belay belt sliding up the body into lower ribs with the weight of, say, a 12stone person.

 

[Duncan]

IMHO belts are what you carry your lamp pack on!!

I call that a 'helmet'.