"Self" lifelining up ladders

[cap n chris]

I say "Potato".

 

[Stu]

IMHO belts are what you carry your lamp pack on!!

I call that a 'helmet'. 

You are soooooooo modern!!

 

[Geoff R]

Just a quick thanks to all for the comments and advise. 

Geoff
 

 

[cucc Paul]

At what point do ropes snap with the petzl (cage style) jammers in a fall (sorry of topic)

As a club we dont tend to self life line at all, just get some one else to life line you. We use belts and a italian hitch on a hms or body belay depending on the situation. Often with freshers we rig one end of the rope then pass it through a screw gate on the person to be life lined belt then pay out take in from the top of the pitch so the rope is doubled up, at least then you stand a chance of hauling em up if it goes wrong.

No ones mentioned releaseable ladders......
Other than Chris has any one had a ladder break.

 

[Stu]

http://en.petzl.com/ProduitsServices/B17_ASCENSBAS_B17504-H.pdf

 

[Brains]

I have had a ladder break on me, luckily near the bottom and with a smooth mud bank run out. The wires just "frayed" and parted.
I have also had a beginner put a leg through the ladder and then let go, squeal and generally whinge while hung up. As she was on the scrawny side and near the top, while my mate took in the life line I pulled the ladder up with her stuck in it and sorted it out at the top. Had the person been a porker or lower down I would have used the releasable ladder option we had included in the rig, and then re rigged as a hauling system. The person in question was also fairly well described as a leg iron...

 

[Peter Burgess]

New thread, perhaps? Breaking ladders?

Sounds like a case of rusty wires. If you untwist the ladder wires slightly, you can sometimes see that inside the wires, rust is developing, even though it isn't visible on the outside. This may be more likely to happen where the wires pass through rungs and ferrules, due to trapped moisture, and the 'dissolved oxygen gradient' that develops when water is trapped in a crevice or similar cavity in iron/steel. Galvanising, unfortunately, doesn't last forever, and cavers should be on their guard for it.

 

[Dep]

I wonder how the wire reacts to the lime in cement?
Any comments on the chemistry Peter?
Seriously - should I bin the club ladder as there is rather more cement on it than I am entirely happy with from the rebuilt weekend.

Or should I leave it to give Geoff nightmares? 

 

[Peter Burgess]

A caustic product such as cement may attack the zinc, which would render the steel more vulnerable. The zinc coating is supposed to protect the steel by corroding preferentially - sacrificial anode - I think this is correct. So if the zinc isn't there, then the steel is more exposed. Don't use acid to clean the cement off.... :spank:

 

[Peter Burgess]

Actually, come to think of it, people have been mixing concrete in galvanised buckets for decades, and I don't think this is a problem. I wouldn't worry about it. Just clean off what you can and keep a close eye on it. The ladders are kept dry normally so I don't think there is any problem here.

 

[ChrisB]

Steel reinforcing bars in concrete are protect from corrosion by the alkaline environment. This results in a thin passive layer (an oxide, I think) forming on the steel, which prevents rust. Over many years, the CO2 in the air reacts with the cement and, working slowly in from the outside, it becomes "carbonated" and less alkaline, allowing the reinforcement to corrode as if it was unprotected. Concrete structures are therefore built with "cover" concrete, ie, a layer of concrete surrounding the reinforcement, thick enough to ensure that the concrete around the bars stays alkaline for the life of the structure.

So, cement on a plain steel ladder will protect it, for a while, after which it won't really make much difference. For extra life, the reinforcing bars are occasionally galvanised, so while I don't know the  chemisty, it seems the cement doesn't harm galvanising.

 

[Dep]

Thank you people for that, actually the few gritty grains on the rungs makes it a tad grippier too!

 

[cap n chris]

Thank you people for that, actually the few gritty grains on the rungs makes it a tad grippier too!

Suspecting that it may break at any moment tends to make you grip harder, too. 

 

[Dep]

Thank you people for that, actually the few gritty grains on the rungs makes it a tad grippier too!

Suspecting that it may break at any moment tends to make you grip harder, too. 

It certainly does!
We sent everyone down in decreasing order of body-weight.
I was last!

 

[Peter Burgess]

You weren't using the new belay point, were you?

 

[Geoff R]

You weren't using the new belay point, were you?

Has that belay point concrete cured already,  or only on the ladder ??     
Our web site has a lovely widgety thingy somewhere on it to nicely calculate "splat" velocity as you hit bottom     

I shall really have nightmares now ! 

 

[Geoff R]

But I guess everyone was belayed  :kiss2:

 

[Geoff R]

err  I cant edit to  "lifeline"  ......

 

[francis]

So you have rigged your ladder, you rig a rope next to it. You self life line down, while self life lining up, the ladder totally breaks and your left dangling on the rope. What do you do? Because of the ladder you didnt bother to bring the rest of your SRT kit to self rescue. Yet if you had brought all your SRT kit why did you use a ladder? If your solo caving or everyone is at the bottom still your (all) in trouble. Hence in my view ladders create a false sense of security and life lining ladders an even worse sense of security.

A couple of ideas i came up with whilst reading this thread. They may be bad??

1) If the ladder breaks you could hang from your belay device (croll, shunt etc), take the rope below you and tie an itallian hitch into a spare crab and clip onto harness. Tie a footloop in the rope below and stand in it so that you can lower your belay device down to the itallian hitch. Sit down on itallian hitch and old the rope with one hand as you untie the footloop you just stood in. Descend a little bit to check things ok. Take off belay device and continue descent.

2) If ladder breaks, sit down on belay device and pull up some slack from below. Tie a prussic knot onto the rope above you with it and tie a footloop. You now have two ascenders and can get out (slowly).

Does this sound stupid?

Francis

 

[Stu]

So you have rigged your ladder, you rig a rope next to it. You self life line down, while self life lining up, the ladder totally breaks and your left dangling on the rope. What do you do? Because of the ladder you didnt bother to bring the rest of your SRT kit to self rescue. Yet if you had brought all your SRT kit why did you use a ladder? If your solo caving or everyone is at the bottom still your (all) in trouble. Hence in my view ladders create a false sense of security and life lining ladders an even worse sense of security.

A couple of ideas i came up with whilst reading this thread. They may be bad??

1) If the ladder breaks you could hang from your belay device (croll, shunt etc), take the rope below you and tie an itallian hitch into a spare crab and clip onto harness. Tie a footloop in the rope below and stand in it so that you can lower your belay device down to the itallian hitch. Sit down on itallian hitch and old the rope with one hand as you untie the footloop you just stood in. Descend a little bit to check things ok. Take off belay device and continue descent.

2) If ladder breaks, sit down on belay device and pull up some slack from below. Tie a prussic knot onto the rope above you with it and tie a footloop. You now have two ascenders and can get out (slowly).

Does this sound stupid?

Francis

The first option "may" be impossible with just one Krab because when stand up (or try) the loaded Krab will stop you - you're effectively puling yourself down! If you connect two Krabs you may just have enough slack.

For both you can use just a rope footloop to go up or down without having to "add" any bits.