"Self" lifelining up ladders

[francis]

The first option "may" be impossible with just one Krab because when stand up (or try) the loaded Krab will stop you - you're effectively puling yourself down! If you connect two Krabs you may just have enough slack.

If you tie the friction hitch on a cowstail instead of tieing it directly to the harness the you can still move around.

Francis

 

[Stu]

Cowstail, even short one may be just too long. You'd have to make a controlled "slide" down the rope.

 

[Dep]

Tie a big loop in tail-rope below your jammer/shunt/etc.
Stand in it to take weight off your jammer and belt - remain standing...
Make an italian below the loop to your belt-krab.
Release your unloaded jammer...
Step out of loop - weight now onto italian...
ab down.

 

[Stu]

Dep, I think I understand what you mean and it should work as long as a) the loop you make will have a critical size and b) you haven't been a tight wad with the rope length in the first place i.e. rope does touch the floor! Clever by pass - I like.

 

[Dep]

Yes, the loop should come down to your knee so as to act as foot-loop. Sep up into it to gain enough height to unload your jammer and belt.
And this only works with plenty of free rope below, if it's too short, or tied off tight at the bottom then you're stuffed.

 

[potholer]

You don't have to tie a loop in the rope to stand up, as long as there's enough slack.
Just wrapping a couple of turns of the rope around the middle of the foot, and holding the 'free' end in a hand can make a decent footloop. Standing on the wrapped foot with the other foot can improve grip by trapping the rope.

Though slow, with a little practice it's also possible to climb short pitches with the above method, using a single chest jammer. Not ideal from a safety viewpoint, but possibly useful in an emergency.
I assume there's some mention of it (or something similar) in Alpine Caving Techniques.

 

[Stu]

You don't have to tie a loop in the rope to stand up, as long as there's enough slack.
Just wrapping a couple of turns of the rope around the middle of the foot, and holding the 'free' end in a hand can make a decent footloop. Standing on the wrapped foot with the other foot can improve grip by trapping the rope.

Though slow, with a little practice it's also possible to climb short pitches with the above method, using a single chest jammer. Not ideal from a safety viewpoint, but possibly useful in an emergency.
I assume there's some mention of it (or something similar) in Alpine Caving Techniques.

We're specifically talking about the need to get off a jammer to be able to descend. Going up, as you describe, is very easy. It can't be used as a means of changing over from up to down without some of the variations above; you'll end up going "nghnghnghhh" as you try to stand up only to find your foot pushing you down!!

 

[potholer]

We're specifically talking about the need to get off a jammer to be able to descend. Going up, as you describe, is very easy. It can't be used as a means of changing over from up to down without some of the variations above; you'll end up going "nghnghnghhh" as you try to stand up only to find your foot pushing you down!!

I thought we were talking about getting off the rope in general in the case of ladder failure.

In any case, for a changeover to descent, a foot-wrap is a valid alternative to tying a footloop, and doesn't involve the need to untie a loop once hanging on a descender, Italian hitch, etc.
It does need a 'loose' descender to allow a change to descent, but so does tying a loop.

 

[Stu]

We're specifically talking about the need to get off a jammer to be able to descend. Going up, as you describe, is very easy. It can't be used as a means of changing over from up to down without some of the variations above; you'll end up going "nghnghnghhh" as you try to stand up only to find your foot pushing you down!!

I thought we were talking about getting off the rope in general in the case of ladder failure.

In any case, for a changeover to descent, a foot-wrap is a valid alternative to tying a footloop, and doesn't involve the need to untie a loop once hanging on a descender, Italian hitch, etc.
It does need a 'loose' descender to allow a change to descent, but so does tying a loop.

We were originally talking about failure of ladders and being strung up by a jammer. The question was raised how to get off a jammer so you could descend if that was your desire.

The footwrap won't work without some means of giving yourself a degree of movement - either add a krab to the Stop (could drop the Stop) or tie a loop (may not have enough rope) below the Croll but above the Stop (in which case you don't need a loose Stop,, it will be already) allowing you to stand up. There is no need to untie the loop afterwards.

This could well end up hurting our brains - words don't really do it justice.

 

[Stu]

In fact you would be hard pushed to untie the loop of rope!!!!

 

[Brains]

No, dont hurt me....
IMHO, if on a jammer and the ladder fails, simplest way down would be a foot wrap and reverse prussik - ater all, it is rare to climb more than one or two ladders in this day and age. But why go down at all? I foyu are last and the ladder is at the bottom, go up and get sorted than return for it properly equipped...

 

[Stu]

No, dont hurt me....
IMHO, if on a jammer and the ladder fails, simplest way down would be a foot wrap and reverse prussik - ater all, it is rare to climb more than one or two ladders in this day and age. But why go down at all? I foyu are last and the ladder is at the bottom, go up and get sorted than return for it properly equipped...

It took me ages to twig what you were on about....... your name is Brains and you don't want hurting!! I get it

 

[Dep]

You don't have to tie a loop in the rope to stand up, as long as there's enough slack.
Just wrapping a couple of turns of the rope around the middle of the foot, and holding the 'free' end in a hand can make a decent footloop. Standing on the wrapped foot with the other foot can improve grip by trapping the rope.

Though slow, with a little practice it's also possible to climb short pitches with the above method, using a single chest jammer. Not ideal from a safety viewpoint, but possibly useful in an emergency.
I assume there's some mention of it (or something similar) in Alpine Caving Techniques.

This will get your weight off the belt ok - but you will not be able to tie an Italian.

I see what you said later about reverse prussicking - this would work but FFS don't get it wrong whilst moving your jammer down or you run the risk of falling off completely - the method I suggested has you properly attached at all times.

Not a bad method though for a short descent - but for longer ones I would advocate using an Italian - after all the reason for getting out of this situation quickly is to not be dangling by a belt around your middle for more than a few minutes or this will do you harm!

 

[Dep]

In fact you would be hard pushed to untie the loop of rope!!!!

True - you wouldn't be able to as your weight would be below it pulling it tight.
But - it's an emergency descent - leave the loop where it is - sort it out later once you're safely down.

 

[potholer]

Ah - when I posted earlier, I was still imagining tying a loop below the descender attachment point
I guess the loop above the descender is a good system, but I'd tend to shy away from leaving knots in the rope if people might have to end up climbing back up after descent with an improvised ascent system.

This will get your weight off the belt ok - but you will not be able to tie an Italian.

You tie the Italian before doing the foot-wrap - just needs some slack in the linkage to allow your body to rise enough to unfasten the jammer.

I'd be unlikely to be without a spare krab to give slack on the descender.
That said, I'd be unlikely to be self-lining without a hand jammer. I tried that once many years ago in a cave with fixed ladders and lifelines, but then found some short rope pitches further on, so used the foot-wrap method rather than messing around borrowing hand-jammers from other people.
I'd be highly unlikely to be self-lining using a belt instead of a harness

 

[Dep]

This method is pecific to a special case.
Climbing a ladder with minimal protection to save you from a plummet.
A belt and some sort of jammer/shunt on a cowstail to follow up the rope with you.
The ladder fails and leves you dangling from a rope.

It isn't possible to tie knots ABOVE the jammer as the rope is under the tension of your weight.

You _could_ tie an Italian first, and then a loop below it to stand it to get the jammer unloaded and off - but you have the added complication of having to remove the loop afterwards so you can ab down - and you will be hanging by your belt the whole time which is damned uncomfortable.
This is strictly an emergency procedure to get you off the rope quickly.

Once you start doing this in a harness with jammers and spare jammers (as one of our members advocates) you might as well forget the ladder and just SRT it.

Personally I would never wear my harness unless I was SRTing - no point in wearing it out unnecessarily. For basic comfort in a belt just use a nappy-sling or bit of rope under your buttocks.

 

[potholer]

You _could_ tie an Italian first, and then a loop below it to stand it to get the jammer unloaded and off - but you have the added complication of having to remove the loop afterwards so you can ab down - and you will be hanging by your belt the whole time which is damned uncomfortable.

That's the point of doing a footwrap - there's nothing to untie.

 

[Stu]

I'm going to try this out. I'm not convinced an Italian hitch will run through as smoothly as seems to be suggested when you try to stand up. However since only a little upward movement of the jammer is required it might be enough.

 

[cucc Paul]

The movement in the length of a HMS should be enough to release a jammer. Then lower your self onto the italian hitch using the wrap/loop, the hitch probably wont need to move although it sounds really awkward and a good way to fall a long way so it might be a good idea for some one to test it... bugsy not me... beardies first

 

[Dep]

I'm going to try this out. I'm not convinced an Italian hitch will run through as smoothly as seems to be suggested when you try to stand up. However since only a little upward movement of the jammer is required it might be enough.

I'm going to try the foot-wrap method.
In my method you tie the Italian when standing - so all you have to do is remove the unloaded jammer sit onto Italian and off you go.