Should we still be caving?

[Stu]

Some people, and I'm really not trying to be rude, should look up false equivalence.

I guess being rude must just be a knack if you don't have to try.

Apologies if it came across that way. People are scared and worried and, like me, are facing massive upheavals (loss of work). Exercise by all means. That's not stopped, yet. But caving, climbing, whatever it may be must take second place to everyone playing their part.

 

[Fulk]

Well, it?s 5 to 7 on Sunday evening, and I?ve just watched the news on ITV; I was utterly amazed and appalled at the footage shown there of people flocking to parks, outdoor gyms, countryside venues, ice-cream vans ? you name it. There were pictures of people walking up Snowdon in a long crocodile (I guess that there must be some steps forming a sort of bottleneck), footage of kids playing (full-contact) football, pictures of a lane leading to a Cornish beach with cars parked nose-to-tail on each side of the road. The outdoor gym was, in some respects, the most bizarre, with people exercising in close proximity to each other and then moving on to another piece of apparatus (presumably ignorant of the fact that on steel the virus can remain active for at least 72 hours). They interviewed one guy who said (I paraphrase from memory), ?It?s great out here; they?ve shut down the indoor gym, so it?s great to get out for a bit of exercise in the fresh air?. (Erm, you didn?t stop to wonder why they closed the indoor gym?)
So ? unless the government imposes a compulsory lock-down, we?re going to go the same way as Italy (that is, if it?s not already too late).

 

[Alex]

It did seem rather rude to me too, I am aware of false equivalences and my last response was more tonge and cheek. But having a go at me or other cavers who are doing what in our view is a responsible thing, I mean we are as far away as we can get from other people, seems to be at best wasted effort. Ire should be directed at all those stupid people going up Snowdon etc. The people who have no concept of staying a way from others. Me and John have actually spoke to several doctors on this (we know quite a few) and saying what we are doing is fine, provided we keep the risks down and of course avoid other people. I will say no more on this we need to stand together (3m apart) and tackle this thing and support each other not get on our high horses. (Because horse riding is bloody dangerous).

P.s. Fjell, I suspect you were taking the piss, but not leaving a call out is a bad idea, because imagine the amount of resources would be needed to find you after you do not turn up for work the next day. Better to let people know where you are even if you decide to set it to next day.

 

[Mark Wright]

I think one of the main problems is there will always be people who think the restrictions don't apply to them. Sometimes justified but in most cases, not.

I was out with the Buttered Badger Trail Bike Riding Club yesterday and there were loads of people out in Derbyshire, definitely not following the 2m rule. Whilst we were 2m apart on the trails, we definitely weren't following the 2m rule when we stopped for lunch at a cafe. They were only offering a take-away service but all 5 of us were sat together on a bench outside. The other 4 benches had similar numbers of motorcyclists sat at them.

Whilst we may be able to selfishly justify continuing with our caving and other outdoor activities to ourselves, our next door neighbours are likely to think, 'if they are going out caving or motorcycling all the time then I'm off to Meadowhall shopping centre'.

There are plenty of exercises we can do at home. They may not be as good for us as caving or trail bike riding but we can all stay physically healthy. We could get a short length of caving rope and do some skipping for one.

If we (myself included) continue to think we know better and the restrictions don't apply to us then I wouldn't be surprised if a total lockdown isn't imposed within the next 48 hours.

Mark

 

[TheBitterEnd]

I went out to get some fuel this morning and it being a nice day I thought I'd stop off somewhere quiet for a walk on the way back. I drove up the single track C road to a place where I have only ever seen one or two cars besides myself in the past and it was rammed, there must have been a dozen cars. It was mainly family groups and everyone was well spaced but touching gates and styles is unavoidable. With plenty of UV and dry weather I doubt the virus is staying around long on surfaces outside but with a constant flow of people there must be a chance of it spreading through that sort of contact.

 

[Pitlamp]

This article appeared on the BBC website a few minutes ago; it may or may not help.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51506729

I've found this forum topic useful as it's helped focus my own thoughts on the matter.  Having avoided caving today I've been able to follow this very civil discussion as it's developed and I've modified my plans as a result.

I may also no longer have an excuse to put off decorating.   

 

[mikem]

Statistics like 'most accidents happen at home' are misleading because so many people are in the home compared to the numbers who go caving, you should look at accidents per person-hour of an activity.

There is a long post on accident statistics from a few years ago, if you want to search for it.

 

[Stu]

It did seem rather rude to me too, I am aware of false equivalences and my last response was more tonge and cheek. But having a go at me or other cavers who are doing what in our view is a responsible thing, I mean we are as far away as we can get from other people, seems to be at best wasted effort. Ire should be directed at all those stupid people going up Snowdon etc. The people who have no concept of staying a way from others. Me and John have actually spoke to several doctors on this (we know quite a few) and saying what we are doing is fine, provided we keep the risks down and of course avoid other people. I will say no more on this we need to stand together (3m apart) and tackle this thing and support each other not get on our high horses. (Because horse riding is bloody dangerous).

P.s. Fjell, I suspect you were taking the piss, but not leaving a call out is a bad idea, because imagine the amount of resources would be needed to find you after you do not turn up for work the next day. Better to let people know where you are even if you decide to set it to next day.

Alex, please accept my sincerest apologies. It really wasn't my intention to insult you.

I do stand by my point about other people and how in this instance those people are us. You and me. The threat isn't just from the virus re: contracting it or transmission. There is a very likely possibility that our health service might fail. Not adding any extra burden must surely be the right thing to do.

An analogy my acute care doctor friend used - people need to ensure that what the hospitals face is a dripping tap not a tsunami.

Please be safe and sane.

 

[Fjell]

The Netherlands (where I have lived off and on quite a bit) is officially going for herd immunity (publicly stated by the PM) alongside efforts to spread it out. No discussion about stopping people going out, but stay 1.5m from people. Universities still teaching in smaller groups. Cannabis only available as a takeaway, rather than in cafe. Brothels to remain closed until 6th April.
I love the Dutch. Zero bullshit.

I should point out their healthcare system is greatly superior to the UK?s in my experience.

 

[Stu]

I love the Dutch. Zero bullshit.

I should point out their healthcare system is greatly superior to the UK?s in my experience.

I think that's crucial in this case.

 

[Laurie]

Maybe we should all give up and become hermits.

 

[Speleotron]

The Brittish Mountaineering Council are about to state that all climbing should be stopped. This is from a UKClimbing thread

"Very quick reply, as its getting late on sunday night and I've had hours of phone conferences with various organisations, doctors, government depts, National Parks, BBC, NHS etc.

There's been a lot of talk about justifying or validating why we can still travel and go climbing or hill-walking "safely" within our capabilities and that somehow, we can do this without affecting anyone else. or impacting spread of the virus.  The simple fact is - we can't - so please stop now!

BMC will tomorrow come out with an amended statement about getting outdoors. 

In simple terms it will be along the lines of -  Don't travel unless essential; Stay at home (home being were you normally live!); keep social distance of at least 2 meters; Exercise, but very locally to your own home only; Avoid all but essential contact with anyone. If some of this sound familiar it's because it's the same message for everyone.  Climbers are not a special case.

We will be saying avoid any activity with any risk of putting burden on medical services.  Essential travel is to buy food, for essential workers, for medical supplies. Climbing is not essential activity. (I would never in a million years think i'd ever say that).

Mtn Rescue cover in the UK will be either withdrawn totally in some areas or at best be severely and drastically reduced by tomorrow night. Many popular mtn areas will be closed down.

This shit really is getting real - I've spent over 35 years in various professional roles passionately defending the rights of the individual to go outdoors, to take risks,  to have the freedoms to do the activities we love. This time i'm saying bluntly and loudly -just don't! Stay home. Too many very experienced medical professionals I know and respect (who are also climbers) are shitting themselves. We all owe it to everyone else to everything we can to help or at least delay the spread of this disaster. Thousands of lives are at stake. Please put climbing, mountaineering and hill-walking on hold until it's safe to do so.....and i promise if I survive this thing ('cos there's no guarantee I will and many of us won't!) I'll be the first in line demanding to get better and improved access in the future..."

Elfyn Jones

BMC Access & Conservation Officer (Wales)

 

[Stu]

The Brittish Mountaineering Council are about to state that all climbing should be stopped. This is from a UKClimbing thread

"Very quick reply, as its getting late on sunday night and I've had hours of phone conferences with various organisations, doctors, government depts, National Parks, BBC, NHS etc.

There's been a lot of talk about justifying or validating why we can still travel and go climbing or hill-walking "safely" within our capabilities and that somehow, we can do this without affecting anyone else. or impacting spread of the virus.  The simple fact is - we can't - so please stop now!

BMC will tomorrow come out with an amended statement about getting outdoors. 

In simple terms it will be along the lines of -  Don't travel unless essential; Stay at home (home being were you normally live!); keep social distance of at least 2 meters; Exercise, but very locally to your own home only; Avoid all but essential contact with anyone. If some of this sound familiar it's because it's the same message for everyone.  Climbers are not a special case.

We will be saying avoid any activity with any risk of putting burden on medical services.  Essential travel is to buy food, for essential workers, for medical supplies. Climbing is not essential activity. (I would never in a million years think i'd ever say that).

Mtn Rescue cover in the UK will be either withdrawn totally in some areas or at best be severely and drastically reduced by tomorrow night. Many popular mtn areas will be closed down.

This shit really is getting real - I've spent over 35 years in various professional roles passionately defending the rights of the individual to go outdoors, to take risks,  to have the freedoms to do the activities we love. This time i'm saying bluntly and loudly -just don't! Stay home. Too many very experienced medical professionals I know and respect (who are also climbers) are shitting themselves. We all owe it to everyone else to everything we can to help or at least delay the spread of this disaster. Thousands of lives are at stake. Please put climbing, mountaineering and hill-walking on hold until it's safe to do so.....and i promise if I survive this thing ('cos there's no guarantee I will and many of us won't!) I'll be the first in line demanding to get better and improved access in the future..."

Elfyn Jones

BMC Access & Conservation Officer (Wales)

What thread is that from?

 

[Speleotron]

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/um__folks__we_need_to_talk_about_this-717331

 

[Stu]

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/um__folks__we_need_to_talk_about_this-717331

BCA next?

 

[HardenClimber3]

And if you read down a bit:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rocktalk/um__folks__we_need_to_talk_about_this-717331?v=1#x9155556

Just don't do it.
When trying to contain infections, it is easy to see comonsense / logical exceptions...experience has taught us that if you allow these, your control fails.... (MRSA, C diff, EBSL, CPE....)

 

[Badlad]

The BCA did prepare an advisory statement on Friday night (I know as I helped with it).  It awaited exec approval but as the voluntary nature of these things get delayed it is probably out of date by now..  Use common sense and look to government and fully staffed similar organisations for best advice.  Its not that hard for everyone to work out the best thing to do in all given circumstances. 

Stay safe and good luck to all

 

[Pitlamp]

Maybe we should all give up and become hermits.

Actually, maybe you're right.

 

[Graigwen]

The BCA did prepare an advisory statement on Friday night (I know as I helped with it).  It awaited exec approval but as the voluntary nature of these things get delayed it is probably out of date by now.. 

That is the problem, last week the situation was changing so fast everything was almost immediately out of date. I wrote a circular for my clients on Tuesday, rewrote it twice on Wednesday but the final version was out of date within seven minutes of being distributed and the whole business was suspended by Saturday.

.

 

[kay]

Whilst we may be able to selfishly justify continuing with our caving and other outdoor activities to ourselves, our next door neighbours are likely to think, 'if they are going out caving or motorcycling all the time then I'm off to Meadowhall shopping centre'.
Mark

I'd been naively thinking I could continue to drive up and do the amphibian survey at Ribblehead Quarry, provide I didn't stop anywhere on the way and didn't go near anyone. But now I've decided against, partly because, if pictures of elsewhere are anything to go by, there's probably already 6 camper vans parked up by the quarry, and the quarry itself will be full of dog walkers. But partly because of what Mark says about role modelling. If someone looks out at the main road and sees it full of traffic, they may feel "well everyone else is driving out to somewhere, it must be OK". I'm not going to add to that. The toads will still be there next year.