langcliffe
Well-known member
I'm not sure this is really relevant to the context under discussion.
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Win a Rab Protium 27L Backpack with the 2nd of the Inglesport Fabulous 5 competitions!
To enter, simply post your tale/photo about carrying loads underground or to/from caves (both home and abroad). It’s a wide brief, anything to do with getting kit from A to B qualifies! Sometimes a picture is worth a 1000 words, hence - photos most welcome!
Simpson Chains
- Thread starter Ian Ball
- Start date
cavemanmike
Well-known member
It’s absolutely criminal to bolt a trad route
Steve Clark
Well-known member
Thread tangent, but has it ever been a clean trad route? I’ve not climbed it, but as far as I’m aware it started life as a pegged and partial aid route (Bonnington 1966) and has been covered in made-made wooden wedges, rotten pegs, mixed-metal bolts, abandoned wires, stuck cams and yards of tat ever since.
They’ve not bolted the route, they’ve just cleaned it and added a bolted abseil station at the top. And made what looks to be a decent job of chopping and concealing the old bolts with resin & dust.
They’ve not bolted the route, they’ve just cleaned it and added a bolted abseil station at the top. And made what looks to be a decent job of chopping and concealing the old bolts with resin & dust.
Why is that?
cavemanmike
Well-known member
Trad is trad sports climbing is sport climbing 
JoshW
Well-known member
What if there was a bit of cord/sling at the top of a trad climb as an abseil point, would you consider this as criminal?Trad is trad sports climbing is sport climbing
As long as the routes themselves remain unbolted, on popular routes like the one demonstrated, I don’t see how the climb becomes any different by having the bolts in place, other than being slightly more convenient to create your own anchor at the top of you choose as there’s less tat..
Major digressions from original topic though
Steve Clark
Well-known member
The logic of rock climbing trad ethics is a bit ridiculous sometimes. Take Napes Needle - one the first and most famous rock climbs in England. It’s mildly awkward to get back down from the top block. There’s a massive resistance to a bolt and there’s nothing natural to tie tat to on top of the block. There is a 10 point manual to build a convoluted trad anchor to get back down ‘clean’.
www.needlesports.com
Except no one follows the last couple of points to down climb the 1st pitch. There’s a load of static rope tat at the belay and you can just ab off. It’s always there, yet no one complains about the tat.
How to Get Down off Napes Needle
<div class="ResponsiveImage text-center"> {Image:Main} </div> <div class ="row"> <div class="col-xs-12 col-sm-8" > <p> <a href="http://needs.shop-front.net">Needle Sports</a> is named after <b>Napes N
www.needlesports.com
Except no one follows the last couple of points to down climb the 1st pitch. There’s a load of static rope tat at the belay and you can just ab off. It’s always there, yet no one complains about the tat.
This thread is about a limestone pothole in the Dales, not a sandstone sea stack in Orkney. But since you choose share this as justification ...
- You can already visit and walk away from Simpson Pot without pull-through. Its the traditional way and still a good trip.
- You can already do a pull-through in Simpson Pot without leaving fixed gear. Most people already achieve this.
- You can tidy up Simpson Pot by just removing the tat. We can all do this.
By what metric are you measuring sustainability here? Titanium ore production, metal refining and working is a high-impact operation, eg carbon footprint many multiples of even stainless steel. By comparison, re-purposing an offcut of old rope uses no energy at all, and costs nothing. Please substantiate your statement.
They literally bolted it
and added multiple abseil stations, two of which, including the top one, are static rope!
alternatively, they used up even more virgin rock by drilling new holes next to the old ones, then brushed the old mess under the carpet leaving insitu metal behind.
chopping and hiding old bolts 'looks' tidy to you but creates new problems
(1) hides what a mess repeat bolting makes of the rock, leaving visitors with a false impression of bolting impact
(2) makes it more difficult to judge the soundness of the area the new bolts are in
(3) makes it more difficult to remove the remnants of the old bolts
Are the old bolts even coming out? Or will they in fact be hammered over / cut off / plastered with resin?
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From the additional agenda item document:
"Ian has advised that the optimum solution for both pitches would require the anchors to be linked with chains to a master point, and he has installed anchors in anticipation of this. The current solution has all sorts of tat in place, which the chains would replace and provide a long-term solution."
I believe the current P bolts are remaining for hard rigging.
(BTW - some trad routes have been turned into sport where they were basically unprotectable, usually with permission of first ascender)
Bike manufacturer found titanium used less carbon than their stainless steel (but presumably a frame has a significant difference in amounts used, whereas bolts will be very similar):
off.road.cc
The carbon cost may be offset by titanium lasting longer / being less reactive:
keitheurope.com
& If we don't work with materials we won't improve the processes:
www.nature.com
Old rope will be losing microfibres into the environment, but neither that, nor placing a modern bolt, will have as much impact as your very presence in that cave / on a climb - microfibres from clothing and damage caused by your movements / touch.
Reynolds finds steel is 'greener' than titanium in study
As a response to the ever-increasing importance of implementing more environmental sustainability in the cycling industry, Reynolds Technology, the British company known for its steel and titanium bicycle tubing, has published the findings of its first Environmental Impact Study. 10 of the best...
The carbon cost may be offset by titanium lasting longer / being less reactive:
The positive environmental impact of titanium products
Sustainability and environmental protection have become major concerns in our modern society. Consumers are increasingly looking for products that respect the planet, and companies are working to reduce their ecological footprint. In this article, we will explore how titanium products...
keitheurope.com
& If we don't work with materials we won't improve the processes:
Titanium takes on a greener hue
A carbon-free extraction technology is highly promising for producing commercially pure grade titanium metal
www.nature.com
Old rope will be losing microfibres into the environment, but neither that, nor placing a modern bolt, will have as much impact as your very presence in that cave / on a climb - microfibres from clothing and damage caused by your movements / touch.
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cavemanmike
Well-known member
Thin end of the wedge. 100 year’s from now everywhere will be full of titanium staple’s to make it easier 
Steve Clark
Well-known member
60 years ago there was a full steel staircase down Lancaster hole shaft.
Now we have 6(?) bolts.
Now we have 6(?) bolts.
Graigwen
Well-known member
Bike manufacturer found titanium used less carbon than their stainless steel (but presumably a frame has a significant difference in amounts used, whereas bolts will be very similar):
........Reynolds finds steel is 'greener' than titanium in study
As a response to the ever-increasing importance of implementing more environmental sustainability in the cycling industry, Reynolds Technology, the British company known for its steel and titanium bicycle tubing, has published the findings of its first Environmental Impact Study. 10 of the best...
I think one of the most important points is that Reynolds came to realize that there is a problem, but not necessarily what was originally thought. Transport costs were far more important then expected. The solution is complete life cycle analysis from extraction to disposal, but that is very difficult to do - for instance Reynolds had to assume all their titanium was virgin metal as they could not establish what, if any, pathways were available for recycling titanium. Here is an extract from the report available at here
Graigwen
Well-known member
& If we don't work with materials we won't improve the processes:
Titanium takes on a greener hue
A carbon-free extraction technology is highly promising for producing commercially pure grade titanium metal
This is not an article in a respected journal but a paid advertisement feature. It is some decades since I taught the history of failed alternatives to the Kroll process for titanium metal smelting, it always seemed that there ought to be a better method but none were economic. If the process suggested in this advertisement works, it might increase demand for British fluorspar?
.
Loki
Well-known member
All this talk about new bolts polluting caves.
Consider for not very long the environmental impact of the manufacture of your car, the pollution caused just driving to and from the cave, the farm waste washed through the cave, the p155 in the cave, the dire state of the very air we and all the other organisms in the cave. Is worrying about whether or not to stick chains and bolts in an already environmentally trashed cave really that important?
Consider for not very long the environmental impact of the manufacture of your car, the pollution caused just driving to and from the cave, the farm waste washed through the cave, the p155 in the cave, the dire state of the very air we and all the other organisms in the cave. Is worrying about whether or not to stick chains and bolts in an already environmentally trashed cave really that important?
From an environmental point of view (except not caving in the first place), probale best bolting and installing in situ permanent ladders made out of recycled metal.
Get rid of all that use of oil to make ropes and the resultant spread of microplastics. SRT isn't that environmentally friendly when you look at it.
New bolts and chains that get rid of tat are a massive improvement.
As for climbing - plenty of trad venues have abseil / belay bolts for decades .. and alot were pegged on first ascents (Peg crack, Cow and Calf). Even Yorkshire gritstone. Harrisons Rocks is now use of belay bolts only and it's owned by BMC (now top rope only to protect t the rock).
Get rid of all that use of oil to make ropes and the resultant spread of microplastics. SRT isn't that environmentally friendly when you look at it.
New bolts and chains that get rid of tat are a massive improvement.
As for climbing - plenty of trad venues have abseil / belay bolts for decades .. and alot were pegged on first ascents (Peg crack, Cow and Calf). Even Yorkshire gritstone. Harrisons Rocks is now use of belay bolts only and it's owned by BMC (now top rope only to protect t the rock).
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