Simpsons water levels

[Stevie]

Looking for a bit of advice.
I went to Simpsons this morning with a friend intending to do the through trip. We went in to rig the exit from the master cave but had to wade through knee deep water through most of the valley entrance passage. Most of it in areas I’ve not seen any water before.
We got to the pitch head. There was more water down there than I’ve seen before but it wasn’t thumping through - you could make out some of the rocks in the river bed below the pitch. There was quite a bit of water coming in from the wall on the right ( looking out from the pitch head). The weather was settled but we ummed and arrred and decided to go down sunset hole instead.
Pretty roundabout way of asking if there’s a good guide to know when there’s to much water for the Simpson (or swinsto) through trip.

 

[Badlad]

Good question

 

[Samouse1]

I think the wade in roof tunnel is a red herring really, I believe it’s a slow drain section and there was some rain overnight.

My personal rule of thumb would be if the beck is flowing under the bridges, check the master cave level. If it’s flowing over the lower bridge, go to the pub.

 

[Steve Clark]

We went a couple of weeks ago and there was a lot more water than normal in the Roof Tunnel (Valley Entrance) after several days of rain previous. The Master Cave was at the usual low flow level and nothing to suggest a lot of water coming down the pots. The bottom waterfall in Rowten wasn't flowing hard.

Not sure how much that helps, but it's certainly possible for water to stay perched in the Roof Tunnel, whilst the Master Cave and the pots above will be fine, so don't abort a trip just because of that.

 

[Stevie]

I think the wade in roof tunnel is a red herring really, I believe it’s a slow drain section and there was some rain overnight.

My personal rule of thumb would be if the beck is flowing under the bridges, check the master cave level. If it’s flowing over the lower bridge, go to the pub.

Thanks for the info. Water was flowing in the beck by the farm (is this what you mean?) but I can’t picture the Lower bridge in the master cave. Is it where the in-situ rope normally hangs?

 

[hannahb]

Agree that the Roof Tunnel takes ages to drain and isn't a good indicator of how wet it will be elsewhere.

I think if you could make out the cobbles on the stream bed at the base of the Roof Tunnel pitch it would have been ok to go down Simpson. I'm not saying you made the wrong decision, though it's good to be happy with whatever decision you make and to have peace of mind.

In my experience Simpson takes quite a while to dry up (learnt this the hard way), so if it had rained a lot the day before it might still have been quite wet. Same goes for Swinsto.

Generally, water levels in the Dales have gone a bit "odd" over the last 5 years or so. Trips that one night previously have thought unwise or impossible in wet weather have been done with no problem, and other trips have been found to be surprisingly wet during dry spells. Combined with less reliable forecasts in recent times it makes choosing and planning quite tricky.

 

[Stevie]

We went a couple of weeks ago and there was a lot more water than normal in the Roof Tunnel (Valley Entrance) after several days of rain previous. The Master Cave was at the usual low flow level and nothing to suggest a lot of water coming down the pots. The bottom waterfall in Rowten wasn't flowing hard.

Not sure how much that helps, but it's certainly possible for water to stay perched in the Roof Tunnel, whilst the Master Cave and the pots above will be fine, so don't abort a trip just because of that.

That’s really helpful. Thanks. Sounds like we would have been ok today.

 

[Stevie]

Agree that the Roof Tunnel takes ages to drain and isn't a good indicator of how wet it will be elsewhere.

I think if you could make out the cobbles on the stream bed at the base of the Roof Tunnel pitch it would have been ok to go down Simpson. I'm not saying you made the wrong decision, though it's good to be happy with whatever decision you make and to have peace of mind.

In my experience Simpson takes quite a while to dry up (learnt this the hard way), so if it had rained a lot the day before it might still have been quite wet. Same goes for Swinsto.

Generally, water levels in the Dales have gone a bit "odd" over the last 5 years or so. Trips that one night previously have thought unwise or impossible in wet weather have been done with no problem, and other trips have been found to be surprisingly wet during dry spells. Combined with less reliable forecasts in recent times it makes choosing and planning quite tricky.

Bugger. And there was me hoping to get my eye in generally.

 

[hannahb]

Thanks for the info. Water was flowing in the beck by the farm (is this what you mean?) but I can’t picture the Lower bridge in the master cave. Is it where the in-situ rope normally hangs?

The bridges over the beck on the surface, not underground

 

[hannahb]

Bugger. And there was me hoping to get my eye in generally.

No-one is really sure why it has changed, but perhaps we will get used to the new norm and you can get your eye in or perhaps it will continue to be a bit random.

 

[Samouse1]

Thanks for the info. Water was flowing in the beck by the farm (is this what you mean?) but I can’t picture the Lower bridge in the master cave. Is it where the in-situ rope normally hangs?

Sorry, meant the beck on the surface, with the bridges to the farm

 

[flakey]

These two bridges, I believe(?): https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.1...try=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAwMi4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw==

 

[danthecavingman]

I might be imagining it or have a poor recollection but I'm sure I've been in Valley Entrance in very wet weather and water was flowing down the pitch into the master cave which was backed up to a depth of at least a couple of meters. The streamway below was silent but an absolutely huge volume of water was obviously flowing into the downstream sump. Scary stuff.

 

[Pitlamp]

The Roof Tunnel carries autogenic flow ("percolation water") but the master cave carries allogenic flow (water derived mainly from sinking streams). The responses of water from these two sources to current and prevuious weather events are different. This is why the water level in the Roof Tunnel isn't a guide to what's going on (or about to go on!) in the Mater Cave.

 

[Ian Ball]

Simpson Pot has a fairly long entrance section with the mostly free climbable five steps. If you get down there and it's grim, then you've got your answer, I will point out quickly that just because you could doesn't mean you should and Sunset is a top trip so good choice I think. A fair way away! I'd have probably gone for a down and up trip in Heron, or a splashing fun time in Yordas. Lots of rope in Bull Pot if you had spare. How does Turbury Pot take you?

 

[Fatman]

Got flash flooded halfway down Simpsons once though it was only drizzling on the surface. We pre rigged VE with no standing water. After battling down KMC half expecting to be sucked to Keld head we reached the ladder pitch in over waste deep still water. Very eerie and we didn't hang around too long.

 

[Stevie]

Simpson Pot has a fairly long entrance section with the mostly free climbable five steps. If you get down there and it's grim, then you've got your answer, I will point out quickly that just because you could doesn't mean you should and Sunset is a top trip so good choice I think. A fair way away! I'd have probably gone for a down and up trip in Heron, or a splashing fun time in Yordas. Lots of rope in Bull Pot if you had spare. How does Turbury Pot take you?

Didn’t think of Heron. Or Bull Pot for that matter. Never been down the last pitch. That would have been a good choice. I don’t know anything of Turbury Pot. Is it a fairly safe option in n all weathers?

 

[langcliffe]

I don’t know anything of Turbury Pot. Is it a fairly safe option in n all weathers?

It comes in below the Split Pitch in Swinsto Hole. It takes the Swinsto overflow water, so its two entrance pitches and the following dig can get very damp. Further on is a place where one has to crawl under a calcite flow, which can also require a soaking. After that, the same rules about the Master Cave apply. I have been up and down it when Swinsto was very wet (the Split Pitch would have been impassable), but we didn't venture beyond Swinsto Great Aven.

Turbury requires a couple of 20 metre ropes for a pull-through (unless you are one of those that get their ropes stuck, in which case, two 40 metre ropes).