Smoking underground - Yes or No?

[hippie nixon]

the law on smokeing in a public place is a bit strange 2 me.

u cant smoke in a concealed public area ie shopping centres bus stands and stations.

yet in pub they use a shealter thats just like a bus stop one but your allowed to smoke there legally. i did hear apparently as long as theys no more then 4 walls/ roofs its legal 2 smoke
ie
3walls one roof
4walls no roof

dont know isthats true.

also as a scaffolder were apparently not allowed to smoke while on the scaffold as its a work place yet it dont have walls roofs so on.

so as said the whole thing confuses me to hell

 

[Brains]

Any workplace is out if more than 1 person there - self employed being the possible exception here

Smoking shelters. I think this is defined as <60% enclosed, including walls and roof but not floor, so if a cube this would be 2 wals and a roof?...

 

[anfieldman]

In my opinion it does not matter if a cave is considered a workplace or not. It is all down to having a respect for your fellow cavers.
The smell of cigarettes to me is awful. I would put it on a par with dog shit. Now if I were to have a perverse need to spread dog shit on the roof of every cave I visited I'm sure that I would be hunted like an animal. In fact I would prefer to smell dog shit because at least it will not give you a life threatening disease.
Every caver who smokes when they go caving is basically doing this to all his / her fellow cavers............ :icon_321:
I used to smoke 20 or 30 a day and I'm damn sure if I still smoked that I would be able to go without a fag during a trip. I also know plenty of cavers who still smoke but they are decent enough people to think of others and wait until they get out.
Personally, if  I find someone smoking whilst on a trip they will have no doubt about how upset I am and I don't give a shit about the consequences.

 

[langcliffe]

Smoking shelters. I think this is defined as <60% enclosed, including walls and roof but not floor, so if a cube this would be 2 wals and a roof?...

50% of walls must be missing (excluding opening apertures).

 

[hippie nixon]

as i said and a few more have it still justcomes down to respect
and nowt else

 

[bubba]

I wouldn't go caving with anyone who didn't respect me enough not to pour their cancerous shit down my lungs.

I've been in caves with smokers in the past and it's completely foul.

 

[george]

... Splashing water at them would probably result in you getting a broken nose (and I'm serious).

Indeed. I do remember some remarkably aggressive posts on here from smokers. Must be all those drugs addling their brains.

So..... Smokers polute our lives and they're violent! Well, we should just bow down to them then.......

 

[spikey]

I used to smoke 20 or 30 a day and I'm damn sure if I still smoked that I would be able to go without a fag during a trip. I also know plenty of cavers who still smoke but they are decent enough people to think of others and wait until they get out.
Personally, if  I find someone smoking whilst on a trip they will have no doubt about how upset I am and I don't give a shit about the consequences.

Ex Smokers.................. :ang:
All most the same (sweeping generalisation, I know.............)

 

[hippie nixon]

... Splashing water at them would probably result in you getting a broken nose (and I'm serious).

Indeed. I do remember some remarkably aggressive posts on here from smokers. Must be all those drugs addling their brains.

So..... Smokers polute our lives and they're violent! Well, we should just bow down to them then.......

i am a non violent smoker unless u wet my backy then i go all hulk :alien: lol

 

[Peter Burgess]

Good for you, Hippie.

 

[SamT]

re cancerous fumes...

I can think of one or two activities that cavers get up to whilst digging every weekend that give off hideous and rather dangerous fumes, but nobody seems to complain about that.

[/devils advocate]

 

[Bob_G]

I would first like to appologise to anyone offended by myself on Sunday in Peak Cavern for having a cigarette at Far Sump. It will not happen again. However it should be noted that i did not know that there was a smoking ban in Peak. The Party who seem to have been most offended by my actions did not mention at the time that smoking was now not allowed, or that they objected to it at the time. It would seem that caving has moved on somewhat in the last 15 years.

 

[bubba]

re cancerous fumes...

I can think of one or two activities that cavers get up to whilst digging every weekend that give off hideous and rather dangerous fumes, but nobody seems to complain about that.

[/devils advocate]

I thought people generally left the area and waited for such fumes to clear? Not sat there breathing them in because some selfish twat decides to feed their addiction?

Also, doesn't nicotine poison bats and the insects that they live on?

 

[SamT]

I was thinking of capping - where people happily sit about whilst breathing in the fumes given of by it. Those fumes are non to good for you, but not so bad as you'd keel over and die - bit like fag smoke.

Only difference is they smell a bit nicer.

 

[graham]

Capping = necessary evil?

Smoking = unnecessary evil?

 

[SpeleoTrog]

I would first like to appologise to anyone offended by myself on Sunday in Peak Cavern for having a cigarette at Far Sump. It will not happen again. However it should be noted that i did not know that there was a smoking ban in Peak. The Party who seem to have been most offended by my actions did not mention at the time that smoking was now not allowed, or that they objected to it at the time. It would seem that caving has moved on somewhat in the last 15 years.

I wouldn't have thought that a smoking ban would need to be publicised. Despite smoking for almost 20 years I would never even have considered taking cigs into a cave let alone lighting one! The fact that we even need to discuss this boggles me!

 

[bubba]

I was thinking of capping - where people happily sit about whilst breathing in the fumes given of by it. Those fumes are non to good for you, but not so bad as you'd keel over and die - bit like fag smoke.

I have no idea of what carcinogens and poisons are present in the fumes given off by capping, but Hilti themselves state "Adverse health effects are not expected from acute exposure to fumes and gases"

Contrast that with the huge body of evidence that makes it perfectly clear that second hand smoking is extremely bad for you (Example).

So, vastly different risks it would seem.

 

[spikey]

Let's look at this objectively. It's obviously a very emotive subject, and has been discussed on here ad infinitum in the past.

As far as I know (and I'm prepared to be proved wrong), it is NOT currently illegal to smoke in a cave (although it may be in contravention of access agreements), and will not be so until a test case goes through a court of law deciding if it's an enclosed space / place of work etc. (which I doubt will ever happen). It is, however, singularly antisocial, given the legacy it leaves in certain areas of caves (although again playing the devils advocate, this will vary - in a roaring, ventilated streamway, the residue will likely be very different to a stale dusty passage at the end of the cave)

But, (and this is my point), the word "respect" has been mentioned in the context of fellow cavers, and bandying phrases like "selfish twat", ".....no doubt about how upset I am and I don't give a shit about the consequences " and "pour their cancerous shit down my lungs" would certainly not command my respect.

There are strong views here, and this is a topic worthy of reasoned discussion, but if people cannot find less uncouth ways of getting their arguments over, then maybe it should not be "discussed" at all. Everyone has a view, but it should be kept on a civil level.

In my experience, (it may not follow on this forum) but, the fouler the language, the lower the intelligence quotient, as the perpetrators cannot find any other way to get their point across..................



OK, stands back and waits for flaming.

 

[bubba]

Sorry but I like swearing. I don't think that there's any link between foul language and intelligence, that just sounds like snobbery to me. Swearing is good. It's a fantastic part of our language.

If you find "cancerous shit" uncouth, then really that's your problem.

How is using the phrase "pour their cancerous shit down my lungs" uncivil to anybody? It really doesn't follow.

<edit>punctuation - it's late, I'm tired and off to bed</edit>

 

[Alex]

No wonder the air is so bad in Derbyshire, Smoking, capping and foul language i am surprised there is any good air left lol.