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SRT day in Cornwall

fat pat

New member
The "Carbis Bay Crew" are doing a SRT training day on the 15th February at a venue to be confirmed .
All are welcome ,please bring your own SRT kit . We are happy to cater for all levels of experience.
This will be a followed by a bolting day, a big shaft day and self rescue day at later dates during 2015.
 

Simon Wilson

New member
Hi Pat,
I have been with Roger King (DCUC) at the last two E&T meetings discussing mainly resin anchors. He works hard on your behalf and gets less assistance than he needs. I am interested in finding out what your bolting day is about.
Regards, Simon.
 

rrx

New member
We are never asked for assistance, opinions and we have installed a vast majority of anchors across cornwall, if we were consulted then the BCA anchor, which we have asked Roger for and he has been unable to provide sadly so we can test it down here, has some major issues for which there are better solutions to(why try to re-engineer something that there are plenty of better solutions to, when we run our bolting day we will be testing bolts, anchors and allsorts and probably be doing a full write-up to be published on the CBC site
 

Simon Wilson

New member
rrx said:
We are never asked for assistance, opinions and we have installed a vast majority of anchors across cornwall, if we were consulted then the BCA anchor, which we have asked Roger for and he has been unable to provide sadly so we can test it down here, has some major issues for which there are better solutions to(why try to re-engineer something that there are plenty of better solutions to, when we run our bolting day we will be testing bolts, anchors and allsorts and probably be doing a full write-up to be published on the CBC site

I'm sorry, I live hundreds of miles away and know little about what you do down there. But I get the impression that you lot are quite happy to plough your own furrow. I've had a good look at your CBC website and you appear to be a nice friendly bunch of cooperative anarchists.

There is a lot of leeway in how the BCA work and they are probably more laissee faire and cooperative than many people realise. You could contribute to and benefit from the BCA without getting involved in things you don't want to get involved in.

You could cooperate with the DCUC and the BCA it seems that you probably have things to contribute. I don't know how much you know about the BCA and anchors but it is rather complicated and there are reasons why Roger has been unable to supply you with anchors depending on when you asked him for them.

You leave me a quite confused about whether or not you want to be involved with the BCA anchor scheme. I am confused why you think you should be consulted by the BCA if you are not part of it. I don't understand how you can ask Roger to supply anchors if you are not part of the DCUC but maybe it just shows how generous the DCUC and the BCA are. I am also confused about who you are addressing when you say, "why try to re-engineer something that there are plenty of better solutions". If you think you have "better solutions" then you could come to the next BCA E&T meeting and contribute to the development of anchors.

Chons da, Simon.
 

rrx

New member
The
Simon Wilson said:
rrx said:
We are never asked for assistance, opinions and we have installed a vast majority of anchors across cornwall, if we were consulted then the BCA anchor, which we have asked Roger for and he has been unable to provide sadly so we can test it down here, has some major issues for which there are better solutions to(why try to re-engineer something that there are plenty of better solutions to, when we run our bolting day we will be testing bolts, anchors and allsorts and probably be doing a full write-up to be published on the CBC site

I'm sorry, I live hundreds of miles away and know little about what you do down there. But I get the impression that you lot are quite happy to plough your own furrow. I've had a good look at your CBC website and you appear to be a nice friendly bunch of cooperative anarchists.

There is a lot of leeway in how the BCA work and they are probably more laissee faire and cooperative than many people realise. You could contribute to and benefit from the BCA without getting involved in things you don't want to get involved in.

You could cooperate with the DCUC and the BCA it seems that you probably have things to contribute. I don't know how much you know about the BCA and anchors but it is rather complicated and there are reasons why Roger has been unable to supply you with anchors depending on when you asked him for them.

You leave me a quite confused about whether or not you want to be involved with the BCA anchor scheme. I am confused why you think you should be consulted by the BCA if you are not part of it. I don't understand how you can ask Roger to supply anchors if you are not part of the DCUC but maybe it just shows how generous the DCUC and the BCA are. I am also confused about who you are addressing when you say, "why try to re-engineer something that there are plenty of better solutions". If you think you have "better solutions" then you could come to the next BCA E&T meeting and contribute to the development of anchors.

Chons da, Simon.

The Whole BCA anchor scheme is a very overcomplicated thing, lots of our members work in the industry and have installed 1000's of bolts, anchors and the like and use all makes and versions of them, we all took one look at the BCA bolt and as some of our member installed some very very similar ones indentified quite a few issues that probably dont even get considered normally, but down here we have things to deal with like highly acidic water and the sea, see my reply in the other post ref DCUC but it's not us being uncooprative, and we have been talking to and working with Roger for a long time, our main problem is the "Our bolts are the ones you should be using because we say so" attitude when we have plenty of better and cheaper ones that are mass produced available, also the If you want to install a bolt in a cave you must be BCA approved, having seen some of the BCA approved bolt installs........well I wont be hanging from them

 

Simon Wilson

New member
rrx said:
The
Simon Wilson said:
rrx said:
We are never asked for assistance, opinions and we have installed a vast majority of anchors across cornwall, if we were consulted then the BCA anchor, which we have asked Roger for and he has been unable to provide sadly so we can test it down here, has some major issues for which there are better solutions to(why try to re-engineer something that there are plenty of better solutions to, when we run our bolting day we will be testing bolts, anchors and allsorts and probably be doing a full write-up to be published on the CBC site

I'm sorry, I live hundreds of miles away and know little about what you do down there. But I get the impression that you lot are quite happy to plough your own furrow. I've had a good look at your CBC website and you appear to be a nice friendly bunch of cooperative anarchists.

There is a lot of leeway in how the BCA work and they are probably more laissee faire and cooperative than many people realise. You could contribute to and benefit from the BCA without getting involved in things you don't want to get involved in.

You could cooperate with the DCUC and the BCA it seems that you probably have things to contribute. I don't know how much you know about the BCA and anchors but it is rather complicated and there are reasons why Roger has been unable to supply you with anchors depending on when you asked him for them.

You leave me a quite confused about whether or not you want to be involved with the BCA anchor scheme. I am confused why you think you should be consulted by the BCA if you are not part of it. I don't understand how you can ask Roger to supply anchors if you are not part of the DCUC but maybe it just shows how generous the DCUC and the BCA are. I am also confused about who you are addressing when you say, "why try to re-engineer something that there are plenty of better solutions". If you think you have "better solutions" then you could come to the next BCA E&T meeting and contribute to the development of anchors.

Chons da, Simon.

The Whole BCA anchor scheme is a very overcomplicated thing, lots of our members work in the industry and have installed 1000's of bolts, anchors and the like and use all makes and versions of them, we all took one look at the BCA bolt and as some of our member installed some very very similar ones unidentified quite a few issues that probably dont even get considered normally, but down here we have things to deal with like highly acidic water and the sea, see my reply in the other post ref DCUC but it's not us being uncooprative, and we have been talking to and working with Roger for a long time, our main problem is the "Our bolts are the ones you should be using because we say so" attitude when we have plenty of better and cheaper ones that are mass produced available, also the If you want to install a bolt in a cave you must be BCA approved, having seen some of the BCA approved bolt installs........well I wont be hanging from them

I understand and sympathise fully with all the points you make. I'm glad you have been working with Roger, I'll probably ask him for more information at the next E&T meeting and hopefully he'll be able to explain to the E&T what your particular problems are with anchors in Cornwall. Your issues won't get considered by the E&T if they aren't brought to the attention of the E&T.

I don't think the BCA are as prescriptive as you think. If you read the BCA anchor policy one of the first things it says is that regions are free to use alternative anchors, the BCA only recommend anchors. http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=equipment_techniques:anchor_policy_2013.pdf

The belief that only a BCA approved installer can install bolts or anchors in caves or mines is due to misinformation. I think if you got more involved you would have a more positive view of the anchor scheme.

There has been testing of anchors carried out in Welsh slate recently and I'm sure everybody interested in anchors would welcome testing done in other regions and other rocks and for people to share their results. I for one would encourage you to do testing and will be looking forward to seeing the results of your tests.

Did you see the preliminary reporting of the Welsh testing? http://www.train4underground.co.uk/bolts-in-slate-testing-project/

and the BCA newssheet (scroll to near the bottom) - http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=news_events:jan15

 

fat pat

New member
Hi Simon,
we doing a bolting day because some Cornish explorers have expressed an interest in doing so, the same goes for srt, big shaft and self rescue.
So the bolting day is about seeing what bolt works for who ever .. We will discuss ,life span, strength, purpose, cost ,installation and responsibilities.
I have been in dialogue with Roger K and he will make a bolt or two available for placement and destruction . During conversations with Roger he made me aware that BCA bolts might be available but will be some time in trial.
We would like use BCA bolts for some projects but we have no interest in joining any organisations. So its simple if we get given BCA bolts we will use them otherwise we wont .we don't have problems with anchors in cornwall its outsiders that seem to have a problem with them.
please don't take this as me being assey but we focus our time on getting underground pushing new spaces and don't have time for "management stuff".
I have installed 15 or so Jim Titt bolts a few years ago on some sea cliff and found them a bit of a pain due to the slightly bent shaft.
pm me for my no.. if you want to chat on the phone ,might save others throwing poo at us
 

Simon Wilson

New member
Pat,
I'm sure nobody will throw poo at you for saying that you don't have time for management stuff. I spent a fair amount of time looking at your fascinating website and hats off to you, you seem to have got things well organised.

As for using BCA anchors without joining any organisations - there are ways of sorting it out. There are some procedures which would have to be followed but it is no big deal. It might be easier if one person was a BCA member but they won't have to let the others know; it can be their own little guilty secret. In the short time that I have been involved with the E&T I have found them to be problem solvers with a positive attitude.
 

fat pat

New member
Many thanks to those who attended and the farm that let us use their barn.
32 turned up , some watched many joined in.
We will run more events throughout this year ,the next will be "bolting", date and venue to be confirmed. 

cheers now .
 

tamarmole

Active member
GT said:
Hi Pat,

I'd be very interested to hear about what anchors you're using in metalliferous mines, we've had some interesting failures in one of the lead/zinc mines in North Wales, seems to be a lottery on which bolts hold and which don't!

More info here: http://www.train4underground.co.uk/2014/05/13/aberllyn-bad-bolts-big-pitch/

Gethin

In the Tamar Valley we tend not to leave bolts/ hangers in situ due to the acid environment.  We (not entirely sure who we are) seem to have standardised in M10 Rawl bolts which require a 16mm hole.  Plonk Rawl bolt in hole, do your trip, remove Rawl bolt, hole is there for next person.  The only downside is that holes on some popular trips such as Bedford United are starting to get a bit worn which is a pain. 

There is talk of  putting in eco hangers - I guess that will happen dreckly.
 

fat pat

New member
Hi, I have replied to Gethin.
years ago we did also use the 16mm rawls.I think we might have been the first in kernow to do so ???

the reasons we stopped are ;heavy battery draw/ 16mm hole, occasionally we would them stuck! and we had some alarmingly  low test results when actually pull tested some.(done at Poonsanooth Viaduct with Cornwall fire service).

 

fat pat

New member
over the week end the Carbis Bay Crew held a bolting day/evening ,10 to 15 attended. Thank you to the DCUC for donation of bolts .
 

Pegasus

Administrator
Staff member
Hi fat pat,

I see The Carbis Bay Crew posting some excellent stuff on facebook - it would be very welcome here on ukcaving  :)

Cheers, Pegasus
 

rrx

New member
We do try and keep places up to date with the latest goings on but sadly there are never enough hours in the day, but thankyou for following our misadventures ;)
 
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