SRT Harnesses for Kids...

[JAshley73]

My 10 year old is asking a lot of questions about SRT climbing. We've been playing on our practice "vertical caving simulator" with rappelling, and she's having fun, and is doing great rappelling on a Petzl Stop, 14' at a time...

My question is about harnesses, specifically for climbing, for kids. It doesn't seem there's many options that might size down for her. I'm going to take her measurements soon, but I'm worried we won't be able to find a caving-style SRT harness small enough for her.

Thus far, we've been just using 1" webbing to make a swiss-seat, and attaching the bobbin to the makeshift harness. I don't know how we'd attach a chest-ascender, unless we threaded the webbing through the croll as we were wrapping the webbing/harness around her body. Probably not the best arrangement.

If others have experience with caving-SRT harnesses for climbing, especially with tall/thin kids, I would really appreciate it!

 

[andrewmcleod]

Less sure about caving, but for climbing very small children are usually in full-body harnesses or a (rated) chest harness (and tied into both). This is because they are relatively top-heavy and likely to invert. Obviously some of that doesn't translate to SRT very well; for descending it's reasonable to have the descender a bit higher than normal but putting the chest ascender higher could be problematic?

 

[JAshley73]

RE the full budy harnesses, I've seen them, although I agree they look more suited for rock-climbing, not SRT caving.

I took her measurements at lunch. 23" waist (54cm), 17" thigh (43cm) and shes's 58" tall. (1.47m) It looks like the smarllest sizes that AV makes, will fit her, shockingly. I don't know about it actually. She's pretty thin, and I'm shocked that her measurements are as large as they are.

I guess another concern is the height of her torso - 13" from shoulder to natural waist. That's not a lot of room for a chest harness, to keep the Croll low & taught when climbing.



Now, I cringe when thinking about what YET ANOTHER set of SRT kit will cost...

(It's true what they say parents - time DOES fly by!)

 

[Fjell]

We had a full body harness. Petzl say this is for up to 30kg. They now have a separate sit and chest harness for up to 40kg (the point being to have a high attachment). These are not effective for SRT. We used them on ladders as well.

The problem is when they go over this, then you have to use an adult harness. I don’t think for SRT you have much alternative to using something like an Avanti or Club. Maybe a MTDE Piri chest harness?

 

[Ed]

Don't Alp Designs do full boy SRT harnesses?

 

[JAshley73]

Don't Alp Designs do full body SRT harnesses?

They have a couple. What's the advantage to a full-body harness, vs. separate seat & chest harnesses?

 

[Fjell]

They have a couple. What's the advantage to a full-body harness, vs. separate seat & chest harnesses?

Not much if it’s the same attachment point level. I think all you can do is leave the chest harness on the Croll all the time, and for kids use a simple 1” tape and metal buckle with a reasonable amount of slack when loosened off. Maybe put a knot in the end of the tape when on. Will hopefully keep them in the sit harness. It isn’t going to stop them inverting in the first place because that is a function of the low attachment position.

I’m personally not a fan of kids under about 14 or 15 being left to do SRT effectively unsupervised in a cave (think rebelays) - particularly a cold wet Dales one. I know many have though. You can do loads of caving without it, and we had several ladders for this purpose (a lot of climbs will need something). I have taken mine down to the main drain via Wretched Rabbit for instance, and County is very feasible for decent trips with a modicum of gear that would be at most kids reasonable limit. Bouncing on rope isn’t going caving. I think we did Swinsto at 16 if I recall (two adults, one teenager between them). You need to always be thinking about rescue - there needs to be a long enough reserve rope at the top so you can double rig something to pick them quickly. And obviously someone at the top ready to go immediately. I get why instructors cart around a bunch of spare stuff.

 

[JAshley73]

We don't have a "ton" of vertical caving in my particular area, and in this general part of the USA, the preference is still for the IRT style of vertical rigging - IE, big ass rope tied around a big ass tree, and tossed down the hole in the ground. So not too many rebelays, etc. to deal with. I would venture to say as well, that we'd just simply avoid those trips altogether for a while.

That being said, we have some future plans to incorporate rebelays, deviations, etc. into the Ashley Vertical Caving Simulator™ for training purposes.

As far as vertical caving with her (a 10-year old) we'll stick to simple situations. Or, just play/practice those skills in some outdoor recreation spots too. We have the Red River Gorge Geological area not too far away, that has tons of opportunities for backpacking, and one could easily find some steeper slopes to play on rope.

I'm thinking this will be a good opportunity for her to work, earn, and help pay for the gear herself too. We'll have some opportunities for her to earn some money this spring/summer, and my thought was to offer to pay for half of her SRT stuff.

 

[Fjell]

My 10 year old is asking a lot of questions about SRT climbing. We've been playing on our practice "vertical caving simulator" with rappelling, and she's having fun, and is doing great rappelling on a Petzl Stop, 14' at a time...

My question is about harnesses, specifically for climbing, for kids. It doesn't seem there's many options that might size down for her. I'm going to take her measurements soon, but I'm worried we won't be able to find a caving-style SRT harness small enough for her.

Thus far, we've been just using 1" webbing to make a swiss-seat, and attaching the bobbin to the makeshift harness. I don't know how we'd attach a chest-ascender, unless we threaded the webbing through the croll as we were wrapping the webbing/harness around her body. Probably not the best arrangement.

If others have experience with caving-SRT harnesses for climbing, especially with tall/thin kids, I would really appreciate it!

I was looking at the MTDE website for something, and saw their child harness which was new for me. This is exactly what is required for a child SRT harness. Has buckles that prob won’t come undone by themselves….

Nino (Enfant) MTDE – Boutique MTDE

boutique.mtde.fr

 

[Ian P]

“From 4 years old”. Wow 😮

 

[Fjell]

“From 4 years old”. Wow 😮

Better dead than duffers.

 

[Ian P]

Better dead than duffers.

Just to confirm. My Wow was a good positive Wow. 🤩

 

[Fjell]

I know.

Just to confirm. My Wow was a good positive Wow. 🤩

I know. I am in favour of getting kids to do things outside. We took three kids under 7 across the Pacific in a smallish boat. Very few do I can tell you, can’t imagine why. If not duffers, won’t drown.

We took them caving very young, but my wife didn’t let them loose with a Stop until a lot older. Possibly because when you looked in their eyes all you could see was a airy space where the brain prob should have been. Boys, what can you do?

 

[pwhole]

I'm a big fan of MTDE harnesses, and that looks awesome, frankly - you may have your problem solved.

And yes, daughters are probably a tad more reliable than sons in general safety, but I would still caution against big drops or climbs too soon. Are there any areas outdoors that you can bolt or rig temporarily to practice SRT on a shorter scale that your daughter could easily handle? And more importantly you can see what she's doing and take appropriate measures if she gets hung up. If kids are keen, they may as well learn early!

Also try and incorporate rebelays where possible as it can make rigging much more elegant and lightweight, and also gives rescuers more options (though with potentially more faff) to get someone out of trouble. I've never liked the idea of 50+metre/yard gaps between anchors unless there is literally nothing in-between that can go wrong. But total exhaustion halfway up is something going wrong.

 

[Fjell]

As I said ea

I'm a big fan of MTDE harnesses, and that looks awesome, frankly - you may have your problem solved.

And yes, daughters are probably a tad more reliable than sons in general safety, but I would still caution against big drops or climbs too soon. Are there any areas outdoors that you can bolt or rig temporarily to practice SRT on a shorter scale that your daughter could easily handle? And more importantly you can see what she's doing and take appropriate measures if she gets hung up. If kids are keen, they may as well learn early!

Also try and incorporate rebelays where possible as it can make rigging much more elegant and lightweight, and also gives rescuers more options (though with potentially more faff) to get someone out of trouble. I've never liked the idea of 50+metre/yard gaps between anchors unless there is literally nothing in-between that can go wrong. But total exhaustion halfway up is something going wrong.

i agree. Little dry 20’ drops are one thing, but much more I think you need to be at least 15. As I said earlier you need to be ready to go, which for me is a competent person at the top with a spare rope they can rig immediately, you don’t want to be prussiking down and then messing around. And forget lifting. It’s cut and go, then sort it out.

Really you want to be using ladders and a full harness. The biggest we ever did was the last pitch in Sunset, and I think only one of them tried it. It’s daunting.

 

[pwhole]

I've only done Sunset once, but we did the bottom pitch on a ladder too.

 

[JAshley73]

And yes, daughters are probably a tad more reliable than sons in general safety, but I would still caution against big drops or climbs too soon. Are there any areas outdoors that you can bolt or rig temporarily to practice SRT on a shorter scale that your daughter could easily handle?

Assuming that was directed to me?

We've been practicing in the Ashley Vertical Caving Simulator™. I added bracing to the roof-trusses in my attic, and then spanned a beam across for a rigging point. I have 14' from floor-to-hook to practice on. 10mm Cancord Greenline, in a tensionless wrap at the top. It ain't much, but it's perma-rigged, and we can practice in the garage rain or shine. It's been very helpful in getting my own gear setup nicely, and has allowed me to get comfortable with changeovers, on a "Stop" and on a Rack. Next up is to learn passing knots. Then add hangers/anchors, and practice re-belays. I have a heavy punching bag in the garage that will eventually be a "stuck caver" to practice pick-offs, in time...

Shown here is my daughter in a webbing-harness, practicing rappelling on a Petzl Stop. Before anyone askes, helmets & leather gloves are now mandatory. For extra fun, we turn the lights off and use our headlamps.

 

[JAshley73]

She does very well at rappelling on the Stop. She's interested in learning the climbing, but I'd rather get her into a real caving harness rather than something ad-hoc for climbing. Thus, the purpose for this thread. I'm thinking at this point (after verifying the correct measurements of course,) of an AV Muruck in the smallest size - which says it'll fit her measurements. I'm not sure what for the chest harness yet. if I can find a buckle for 1" webbing, maybe just 1" webbing through the croll, and into a buckle... Then again, maybe the AV chest harnesses will size down far enough to fit her as well...?

 

[mikem]

You can set up a rebelay by attaching the loop to a second rope from the beam

 

[Fulk]

I like your practice set-up, JAshley, but could you explain what a 'Ashley Vertical Caving Simulator™' is?