R
RM
Guest
Unfortunatly not. There is about a 2 m lip on the other side and a good 20m to the head of the pitch where the angle goes down. When we bailed the sump into the original dam I managed to get a long way in, about 5m past where the line is tied, to a little bell, This made me wonder if a higher dam was the answer on the basis we must be close, though the far end is abit tight for the free dive if not.
SamT
Moderator
I thought about the same Mark - Thats what Ive set up in Namraed in baggers (not tested it yet though).
A couple of people have said that the lip in the other side is higher than the near side though.
I still want to go back with a better pump - and a little more time - see what can be done.
A couple of people have said that the lip in the other side is higher than the near side though.
I still want to go back with a better pump - and a little more time - see what can be done.
B
BenM
Guest
Rob.... I know I was there with you, but did you say that there was a line?
Does this pass all the way though the sump - did u/anybody notice?
If so... with a few garden cains, a bit of string and a spirit level we could get a good estimate of the length of this thing and a maybe reasonable estimate of the lowest hight of the ceiling?
Just a thought in the absence of a survay!
Does this pass all the way though the sump - did u/anybody notice?
If so... with a few garden cains, a bit of string and a spirit level we could get a good estimate of the length of this thing and a maybe reasonable estimate of the lowest hight of the ceiling?
Just a thought in the absence of a survay!
Pitlamp
Well-known member
If the small dome / airbell is the one I'm thinking about it's about 5 metres maximum from the end. The elbow of the sump is at the very end and is tight, so definitely don't free dive it. Better to take more time and work out a reliable method of removing the water, for everyone's safety. Don't discount Mark's idea of pumping the sump through itself. As you surface at the far side you hit a rift, the way on being up a mud slope to the right. It's some distance before it starts to slope down towards the pitches. The head is at least 2 metres but this is not impossible to overcome.
Another option possibly worth thinking about is the "permanent siphon". If you set a siphon going over the mud mound beyond but have the outlet submerged in a bucket just at the level you want to siphon to, as long as the upstream end stays submerged the siphon will not break. Then as the sump refills it automatically keeps siphoning. It's fiddly to set up and it'd be worth digging a pit next to the sump to keep the inlet end of the siphon tube in. Also it'd be prone to being dislodged, so would need fixing in place pretty rigidly whilst in use. Just thinking out loud in the hopes it helps.
Don't free dive it!
Another option possibly worth thinking about is the "permanent siphon". If you set a siphon going over the mud mound beyond but have the outlet submerged in a bucket just at the level you want to siphon to, as long as the upstream end stays submerged the siphon will not break. Then as the sump refills it automatically keeps siphoning. It's fiddly to set up and it'd be worth digging a pit next to the sump to keep the inlet end of the siphon tube in. Also it'd be prone to being dislodged, so would need fixing in place pretty rigidly whilst in use. Just thinking out loud in the hopes it helps.
Don't free dive it!
D
Dave H
Guest
Smart idea. Does anyone know of a working example? (in a cave)pitlamp said:
A
Andy Stewart
Guest
What's the gear like on the filthy five pitches? I assume it hasn't been p bolted. I have 30 m of 1/2" hose pipe for a siphon. Is this likely to do the job at St Valentines sump?
SamT
Moderator
eyup andy - take it you didnt get down there on saturday.
There is hose in place on the Eating house side already - but if you want to try and suss it out from the F5 side then go to it.
I gather that the old vintage dynamic rope on the pitches has been replaced with static rope - however the Y hangs at the top are still just assorted tat of unknown vintage. The bolts are in a state too so ascend gently at your own risk.
This is why I'd like to sort a siphon/dam out from the top side and get the place re-bolted with a nice pull through system.
There is hose in place on the Eating house side already - but if you want to try and suss it out from the F5 side then go to it.
I gather that the old vintage dynamic rope on the pitches has been replaced with static rope - however the Y hangs at the top are still just assorted tat of unknown vintage. The bolts are in a state too so ascend gently at your own risk.
This is why I'd like to sort a siphon/dam out from the top side and get the place re-bolted with a nice pull through system.
A
Andy Stewart
Guest
Okay- definitely this saturday even if the sun is shining. We'll have a go from the Eating House side using your hose , but i expect there's a limit to how far you can siphon through a narrow pipe with a small head, so if we don't manage to drain it we'll go to the other side and have a look. I'll leave my hose there hopefully siphoning, for future reference,and I'll post the result next week. :roll:
Do you know anything about the dig at the top of Magin's Rift? The rift goes up for a long way, then through a squeezy passage on the left and onwards and upwards with just loose stones filling the passage. It feels like it should lead somewhere, but then I suppose that's what leads lots of obsessive diggers on. :twisted:
Do you know anything about the dig at the top of Magin's Rift? The rift goes up for a long way, then through a squeezy passage on the left and onwards and upwards with just loose stones filling the passage. It feels like it should lead somewhere, but then I suppose that's what leads lots of obsessive diggers on. :twisted:
SamT
Moderator
I think some of the eldon lads had a poke about up there recently - I think there were a series of digs by the late Ben Bentham entiltled something like death 1 death 2 etc etc.
Probably some good info lying about in some journals somewhere. If only we could find a home for the eldon library.
Probably some good info lying about in some journals somewhere. If only we could find a home for the eldon library.
SamT
Moderator
Had another play at the sump on friday night.
After some modifications - my bilge pump is now insitu at the sump and will pump water all the way along the pipe to the drain.
The drain was comprehensibly tested yesterday by draining the small lake into it - the water easily ran away and showed no signs of backing up.
Unfortunately - the drain (which is a small rift about 6-8 inches wide in the floor of the passage) is choked with rubble/mud and must be about at the same level as the sump. When we stoped pumping - you could see that it was trying to syphon but after about 10 seconds - the flow slowed and then stopped.
All that is needed is for the rubble to be fetched out of the rift so the pipe can be pushed further down - about a meter and the syphon should then work well.
Easier said than done - since when head first down the rift - its difficult to do any usefull digging.
we reckon those fence post spades (like a big pair of tongs) would do the trick and possibly a metal bar for ramming down. the fill is loose rock which just needs plucking out.
If a drain pipe could be broddled in - then the hose fed down that some distance it might help (and keep the rubble from running in)
This is and open project - anyone fancying a go is more than welcome. (pending parenthood is probably going to curtail my caving a little in the near future).
I may have a crack on night next week.
After some modifications - my bilge pump is now insitu at the sump and will pump water all the way along the pipe to the drain.
The drain was comprehensibly tested yesterday by draining the small lake into it - the water easily ran away and showed no signs of backing up.
Unfortunately - the drain (which is a small rift about 6-8 inches wide in the floor of the passage) is choked with rubble/mud and must be about at the same level as the sump. When we stoped pumping - you could see that it was trying to syphon but after about 10 seconds - the flow slowed and then stopped.
All that is needed is for the rubble to be fetched out of the rift so the pipe can be pushed further down - about a meter and the syphon should then work well.
Easier said than done - since when head first down the rift - its difficult to do any usefull digging.
we reckon those fence post spades (like a big pair of tongs) would do the trick and possibly a metal bar for ramming down. the fill is loose rock which just needs plucking out.
If a drain pipe could be broddled in - then the hose fed down that some distance it might help (and keep the rubble from running in)
This is and open project - anyone fancying a go is more than welcome. (pending parenthood is probably going to curtail my caving a little in the near future).
I may have a crack on night next week.
R
RM
Guest
Hey sam
Good effort
Unfortunatly me and the other SUSS lads are still in exam mode till this friday. The week after that I would be interested in a go if youve not managed it by then. And I could probably drum up some others if neccessiry. I no Ben M is keen for one.
Good effort
Unfortunatly me and the other SUSS lads are still in exam mode till this friday. The week after that I would be interested in a go if youve not managed it by then. And I could probably drum up some others if neccessiry. I no Ben M is keen for one.
A
Andy Stewart
Guest
Sorry, but we left in a hurry on saturday and left your pump system disconnected. I didn't realise you were there on friday evening. We pumped some water , but couldn't get the syphon working. We came to the conclusion that if you run the hose back to the main passage then it should work. The permanent syphon idea should work if there was a valve that could turn the flow rate to match water coming into the sump.If you can dig out the drain hole at the pool and push the hose down it then even better.
I left my garden hose at the drain hole with your pump. We will go back and try to syphon water from the filthy five side.
SamT
Moderator
No worries -
I think the best/neatest approach will be to dig out the drain next to the lake.
We might just have enough hose now to run back to the main passage. but Im not a fan of having too much gubbins lying around the cave. A pipe there would encroach on the normal East canal trip and look unsightly.
Ive not been to the other side yet. but it may be a better option to lay the pipe though the sump (from the dam) up and over the other side - that way - you can prime/pump the syphon from the dam, but it will flow out down the filthy 5. Need to assess the heights/distances involved.
Like I say - I think the neatest option will be to clear out that little rift to give us enough height for the siphon to work.
I think the best/neatest approach will be to dig out the drain next to the lake.
We might just have enough hose now to run back to the main passage. but Im not a fan of having too much gubbins lying around the cave. A pipe there would encroach on the normal East canal trip and look unsightly.
Ive not been to the other side yet. but it may be a better option to lay the pipe though the sump (from the dam) up and over the other side - that way - you can prime/pump the syphon from the dam, but it will flow out down the filthy 5. Need to assess the heights/distances involved.
Like I say - I think the neatest option will be to clear out that little rift to give us enough height for the siphon to work.
SamT
Moderator
Had another go last night.
Tried several things
The drain by the lake is proving difficult to dig -
It looks as though that at its current depth, we are on the cusp of having a siphon effect.
We are about 1 or meters down now and its narrow - so that head first its getting harder to pull stuff out - plus its quite choked with mud, not just loose rubble. We had a long metal bar with us in the hope that we could 'broddle' a way down through it.
If another meter or so depth could be gained then Im sure it will siphon well.
We then tried running the rest of the hose all the way back to the main passage. The hose was just long enough - and whilst Im sure there is more of a drop - the increased length means added friction and it still didnt seem to want to siphon.
Andy - I assume it was you that hung the bucket in the roof at the dam in a swildons mud sump stylee) Did you have much success.
There are 3 options open to us now.
1: dig the rift another meter deeper.
2: hang a good bucket/funnel combo as high as possile in the roof by the sump and bail into that so that the water drains back along the hose and down the drain.
3: investigate laying our two long hoses from the dam - through the sump - up and over the lip and down the filthy five pitch..
I favour haveing a look at no. 3.
Johnny - you got any air in your tanks.
Tried several things
The drain by the lake is proving difficult to dig -
It looks as though that at its current depth, we are on the cusp of having a siphon effect.
We are about 1 or meters down now and its narrow - so that head first its getting harder to pull stuff out - plus its quite choked with mud, not just loose rubble. We had a long metal bar with us in the hope that we could 'broddle' a way down through it.
If another meter or so depth could be gained then Im sure it will siphon well.
We then tried running the rest of the hose all the way back to the main passage. The hose was just long enough - and whilst Im sure there is more of a drop - the increased length means added friction and it still didnt seem to want to siphon.
Andy - I assume it was you that hung the bucket in the roof at the dam in a swildons mud sump stylee) Did you have much success.
There are 3 options open to us now.
1: dig the rift another meter deeper.
2: hang a good bucket/funnel combo as high as possile in the roof by the sump and bail into that so that the water drains back along the hose and down the drain.
3: investigate laying our two long hoses from the dam - through the sump - up and over the lip and down the filthy five pitch..
I favour haveing a look at no. 3.
Johnny - you got any air in your tanks.
SamT
Moderator
too quote shakespear "'The better part of valour is discretion"
After watching the snow slowly start to cover our kit as we unpacked the care we decided to bag off the trip lastnight on the grounds that if there was one place in the peak we might get snowed in - then it was at the giants car park.
The very ensthusiastic plan was to dive the sump - drag the hose though
, set it up to drop down the filthy five so that you can prime the syphon using the pump - and it syphons over the other side.
Shame since Im sure the crabwalk would have been quite exciting - what with all the snow melt. (yes - it warmed up a bit and didnt really snow that much :roll: )
So - does anyone (pit lamp??) know exactly how tight the exit is - could you fit through with bottles on.
Also - Im after an estimate of the head that has to be overcome on the far side, and a distance to the first pitch. Any info appreciated
After watching the snow slowly start to cover our kit as we unpacked the care we decided to bag off the trip lastnight on the grounds that if there was one place in the peak we might get snowed in - then it was at the giants car park.
The very ensthusiastic plan was to dive the sump - drag the hose though
, set it up to drop down the filthy five so that you can prime the syphon using the pump - and it syphons over the other side.
Shame since Im sure the crabwalk would have been quite exciting - what with all the snow melt. (yes - it warmed up a bit and didnt really snow that much :roll: )
So - does anyone (pit lamp??) know exactly how tight the exit is - could you fit through with bottles on.
Also - Im after an estimate of the head that has to be overcome on the far side, and a distance to the first pitch. Any info appreciated
A
Andy Stewart
Guest
The other way to get to the far side of the sump is to swim the east canal and up the filthy five pitches, maybe even putting in new bolts on the way. The sump could be siphoned from this side in theory. If I get around to it I'll try to go for this option ....................
SamT
Moderator
The boys are doing a trip tonight up the filthy five to have a look at the other side. (Im at work )
Andy the plan is to pull the hose though the sump (via either a diver or tying the hose to the insitu dive line and pulling it through.)
The hose will then start at the eating house side of the sump - go though the sump - up and over and down the filthy five. Using the pump - the hose can then be primed and the syphon effect should then take over. Draining the sump down the filthy five
We'll see how the boys get on tonight.
)Andy the plan is to pull the hose though the sump (via either a diver or tying the hose to the insitu dive line and pulling it through.)
The hose will then start at the eating house side of the sump - go though the sump - up and over and down the filthy five. Using the pump - the hose can then be primed and the syphon effect should then take over. Draining the sump down the filthy five
We'll see how the boys get on tonight.