St Valentines Sump

[JB]

George Taylor, Anne and I went to try to do the Giants figure of 8 trip today. Everything was looking good; we'd got all the kit we needed, Far Curtain was passable, St Valentine's sump was at 'normal' level when we arrived and I was confident we were going to get through. However, the pump broke before I'd managed to start the second siphon. We didn't have enough time to wait for the sump to empty with only one hose so had to call it a day. 

Will post on here when the pump is fixed (should be later this week).

 

[drainrat]

JB, has the pump been fixed yet? Anyone else know about it? I'm considering giving the figure 8 trip a bash sometime early summer.

Drainrat.

 

[SamT]

As far as Im aware - JB fixed the pump.

The whole project was left working - but not completely finished.

There are two hoses laid through the sump zip tied together, You will need to wade into the sump to retreive the ends. (or try pulling one end of the blue polyprop rope which may or may not be tied to the end of the hose depending on how JB left it).

you then need to prime the hoses. Not sure how easy it is to keep the first one submerged while you prime the 2nd.

Now the important bit. Once the hoses are running, you need to return them to the deepest bit of the sump. You can wade a fair way in - to a small air bell - and stick them as deep as possible there - but you may still have to sit and wait a while, then if it looks like the hoses are going to break suface - shove em in a bit deeper.

someone else could be off rigging Geology pot at this point.

I know JB has actually been through. so the system does work. Not been done with two hoses though. I'd allow at leat two hours for the sump to drop.

You've sparked my interest in this one again - I might have to unpack my caving kit and get down there.

 

[drainrat]

Waking bright and early this morning, I felt the sudden urge to get underground so off I popped on a solo trip down Giant's Hole. I decided to go and have a look at St Valentine's sump to try and empty it using Sam T's pump/syphon arrangement.

However after over an hour of struggling I couldn't even get one of the hoses syphoning. The problem is that there is no way of attaching the hose to the pump. There is a 2 inch stump of white hose jubilee clipped onto the pump, but the main fire hose neither fits inside the white tube, or over the top of it. Surely some sort of connector is required? I cunningly disassembled the fire hose nozzle to try and butcher a connector but even then I was still stumped.

All I managed to do was butt the two pieces of tube together and pump frantically, but the amount of water leaking prevented me overcoming the head.

Drainrat MEng (Hons)

 

[SamT]

However, the pump broke before I'd managed to start the second siphon. We didn't have enough time to wait for the sump to empty with only one hose so had to call it a day. 

Will post on here when the pump is fixed (should be later this week).

There was a small black plastic "reducer" that took the size of the white 'stub' down to the fire hose size. This is what snapped on JB - however - I'm sure he'd informed me that it was now fixed.

Seems not.

Its was one of these - cut to the two appropriate diameters

I'll try and get hold of one from the High Peak Garden Center. Seems like they are not robust enough to withstand cavers - both johnny and JB have bust them. I might solder some copper fitting together to create the same thing - should be a bit more robust.

 

[drainrat]

Do you know the two internal diameters of the pipes? I could probably turn something in steel on the lathe. That would never break! Also, only one fire hose was attached to the rock, the other was way down the sump having snapped it's zip tie.

BTW, 10/10 for the pulley system. It seemed to work a treat.

Drainrat.

 

[SamT]

Erm - I'll let you know, need to dig some out of the shed and measure them. Brass or stainless would be nice (but to be honest - I think the copper fittings would be fine (ive done one before).

Bear in mind that a thin wall is desirable - as maximim flow rates are required. Thats why the copper tube is good.

As mentioned above - the project is not quite finished.

The hose's could do with evening up i.e. the shorter one needs pulling though to match the longer one. (dont try just pulling, the hose is is two sections and there will be far too much friction/weight. It will need to be done when the sump is empty.

Also - need to tinker with the pully/rock...
a: it probably needs to go further into the sump.
b: may need to devise some sort of method of weighting the hose, yet maintaining it clear of the bottom to prevent blockages. If a stones/debris where to get sucked up and lodge as you drag the hose back to the deep point - it would knacker the whole system.

If you want to tinker drain rat - feel free - I'll be busy in baggers for the next few months.

 

[JB]

Hmmm...just seen this!

I definitely replaced the fitting with one from the fish shop next to Hitch n Hike. Was a couple of weeks after I bust it. It wasn't quite such a good fit as the original one that broke but i stuck it right in there and it looked pretty solid. If all there is now on the end of the pump is a white bit of plastic pipe then it's come off since. I know that some lads from Chesterfield (Tony something) were going to have a go a couple of months ago. I kept finding even with the original one that when you disconnected the firehose from the pump the reducer thing often came out. Sounds like the reducer has come off when someone's disconnected the firehose. It might still be on the end of one of the firehoses.

Cheers,
Jules.

 

[drainrat]

It might still be on the end of one of the firehoses.

That's one thing I didn't check. I saw the second fire hose about 10m down into the sump, but I swam straight past it without having a good look. Still, as SamT says it is still work in progress. In my mind I am devising a doofer, that can be plugged into the firehoses once they are siphoning, that will prevent them from hoovering up big stones.

Ratty.

 

[BenM]

Sam….
The reappearance of this thread has sparked an idea for my own little project down here in the Mendips!

Thing I’m wondering about is how did you eventually solve the problem of the siphon been dragged through the mud? - and then getting blocked?

Saying that I can’t remember St V’s been too muddy (I’ve got about 10inch of the stuff to deal with)…

 

[SamT]

Hmm - or is floating about in the sump somewhere.

Looks like it needs jubliee clipping to the white hose firmly. That way you have pump/white hose/reducer all as one unit.

Just plug the fire hose on - pump slow and steady. I found that just holding the whole thing underwater, hold the fire hose on with you hand, and that seemed to work.

As for a 'doofer' - as ratty puts it. How does this sound.

The two hoses are zip tied to the *underside* of one of those Swimming floats (18inch square of foam). They effectively float on the surface then, away from any muck - a lead weight of the right mass is ziptied underneath - effectively holding the float the right way round (like a keel) . so you have a sandwich - float on the top - pipes - lead keel.

that way - you can use the pully - to 'float' the hose to and from the far end of the sump whilst keeping it clear of any crap in the bottom of the sump.

Just a thought - but sounds fiddly.

 

[Rob]

Sam….
The reappearance of this thread has sparked an idea for my own little project down here in the Mendips!

Thing I’m wondering about is how did you eventually solve the problem of the siphon been dragged through the mud? - and then getting blocked?

Saying that I can’t remember St V’s been too muddy (I’ve got about 10inch of the stuff to deal with)…

When we were pumping the rasp last year Henry made up a few cages to put over the end of the pipes. These were made out of strong wire mesh that extended about 15-20cm out of the end of the pipe and were jubilee clipped on to the pipe. This way the small bit of silt could pass through the system (hence not blocking the mesh) and the gravelly bits couldn't get into the pump.
He's probably got them still, going spare...
It depends what your trying to do with the sypon though. In the moosetrap these meshes were good because they wanted the silt hoovering away with the water. But if there's plenty of space through with the mud there then maybe not an issue and you could adopt a more suitable method.

 

[SamT]

Thats the obvious solution - however - it would mean that if folks want to turn up and just start pumping (fnar fnar) they dont want to be fiddling about getting the cages off - priming - then back on again with almost certainly jammed/rusted jubilee clips. With the floaty method - the float could be slid further back along the pipes (if the zip ties arent pulled too tight). Attached to the pump - primed) then slid back under the float - and back down the sump.

Sounds simple enough in my head. Probably quite fiddly in practice.

 

[drainrat]

Was just thinking (could you hear the cogs grinding?), how about if another doofer was made that joined the two hoses together with just one inlet hose, so there was just one hose to prime? Would the pump still be able to prime both syphons simultaneously?

I best get AutoCAD fired up (blows off the dust....).

Ratty.

 

[BenM]

Sam...
Did you manage to find one of those pipe reducers? High Peak Garden Center?

 

[JB]

Did you manage to find one of those pipe reducers? High Peak Garden Center?

I'll reply cos it was me that got it! I got one from the High Peak Garden Centre and another from B&Q in Sheffield. The one from HPGC fitted and that's the one that seems to have now disappeared.

 

[SamT]

Was just thinking (could you hear the cogs grinding?), how about if another doofer was made that joined the two hoses together with just one inlet hose, so there was just one hose to prime? Would the pump still be able to prime both syphons simultaneously?

I best get AutoCAD fired up (blows off the dust....).

Ratty.

Sounds Ideal.

I might bosh down Giants next week with a camera. (JB - are you up for a late afternoon trip - perhaps about 3-4 pm. )

Or - I could go in the PM - set the syphons going - then you could have an evening trip (with Chris??) when the sump should be empty - or pretty damn near empty. You could then Re-arrange the hose (so that both hose's reach the dam).

 

[SamT]

Update

Today was meant to be the big one, I had all the bits required for the pump, all the rope for geology and time on my hands. The fig 8 was on.

I had no one to go with so it was to a be a solo venture. I entered the cave at 11am, was at the sump by halfpast.

After a little fiddling with jubilee clips - I had the first hose syphoning well.

I crawled into the sump with the pump, to get the 2nd, shorter, hose going. It was a bit awkward - being on hands and knees, waist deep in cold water - but got the pump on and started pumping. It seemed to be working - i.e. the pump was definatly pushing water up the hose, but it didn't seem to want to start a syphon. After 10 minutes fiddling about - I gave up as my legs were going numb. 
I wonder if the half way joint has sprung apart - and hence I was just pumping water through - but it would not be going over the edge to start a syphon.

I then thought "oh well, I'll at least get the working hose down to the deep bit of the sump, I know, I'll try out the pully system."

This was a bit of a mistake. It got snagged after a short distance so I waded in again after it. Thats when I noticed it wasn't sucking any more. Oh dear.
I've always suspected that 'hoovering' stones might have been a problem. I tried attaching the pump again - but it became apparent that the hose was definately blocked. 

I'd well and truly spat the dummy out by now. One hose thats not working (for some unknown reason) and one thats blocked - probably at the joint in the middle that is actually at the far side of the sump.

Whats needed now is a trip to the other side - i.e. up the filthy five to check out the joints. Hopefully unblocking hose 1, and checking the joint on hose 2.

I'm getting to the point where I just cant be arsed anymore.  so near - yet so far

 

[Pitlamp]

I reckon it'd be quicker and easier just to teach you to dive!

(Sorry Sam - just couldn't resist it.)

)

 

[BenM]

My advice – get yourself down the pub, have a pint and a bag of crisps… and the enthusiasm will come flooding back! Always seems to work for me anyway!

I’m up in Derbyshire this Fri aft/Sat and depending on other commitments could be persuaded to nip round to the F5! Preferably not by myself – swimming in the east canal on my own doesn’t sound fun!