St Valentines Sump

[SamT]

The boys are doing a trip tonight up the filthy five to have a look at the other side. (Im at work )

Andy the plan is to pull the hose though the sump (via either a diver or tying the hose to the insitu dive line and pulling it through.)

The hose will then start at the eating house side of the sump - go though the sump - up and over and down the filthy five. Using the pump - the hose can then be primed and the syphon effect should then take over. Draining the sump down the filthy five

We'll see how the boys get on tonight.

 

[Johnny]

Excellent trip! To Filthy Five a wallow about in the far side of Valentines and back at the cars in 2.5 hours.
The exit to the sump is tight, about 30cm high and 75cm wide, flat floor of packed mud arched, solid roof.
A short gravel slope rises steeply by 1.5m to a flat floor which has a further rise of approx 0.5m, (2m head required). The passage runs 20 - 25m to the first pitch of the Filthy Five where theres as much drop as you want.
Your plan looks feasable SamT but it probably involves me getting very wet, bugger!
Best plan would be to use the line through the sump to pull the hose through and dive it should the thing get snagged.

 

[SamT]

Nice one lads - sounds like a plan.

Hopefully the pump there will be beefy enough to over come 2m head.

 

[jasonbirder]

Saw you lads in Giants last night...
The speed you lot monkeyed up the ladder without breaking sweat while we were still faffing about with Lifeline and an approach line reminded me how far we've got to go before we're "proper" cavers!
On the plus side we spotted your missing crowbar in the pool...on the minus side my brother (last man up the pitch) left it at the bottom....

 

[SamT]

Saw you lads in Giants last night...
The speed you lot monkeyed up the ladder without breaking sweat while we were still faffing about with Lifeline and an approach line reminded me how far we've got to go before we're "proper" cavers!

Isnt there a thread on here somewhere about that :wink:

On the plus side we spotted your missing crowbar in the pool...on the minus side my brother (last man up the pitch) left it at the bottom....

doh - so at least its still there.

 

[SamT]

So - nearly there now.

On thursday - I tied the hose to the dive line - went round the far side and pulled it though - went like a dream with no snags or anything.

So now - the hose is laid through the sump - up - over and down the first two pithes of the filty five. (Id say we had a good 15 meter drop on the far side - do providing we can pump water up over the top - it should have a hell of a siphon going.

Unfortunately - we didnt have enough time left to go back round and attach the pump to try it out - so that will have to wait till next week.

Finger crossed.

Oh - and found the crowbar on the way back - so bonus. (cheers jason for stashing it!!).

 

[SamT]

well - finally - the siphon works.

The hose was easily primed by the pump (use slow and steady strokes on the pump).

I found there was a much better flow if the pump was removed from the hose again but beware putting your thumb over the end of the hose to test the suction - it was that strong I nearly lost my thumb!!.

You need a screwdriver to tighten the jublilee clips (it may be worth taking a couple of spare clips (about 1 and a half inch diameter)

After about an hour the passage sump had deroofed but was still not passable, I had to leave at that point which was very frustrating. Also - at this point - the end of the hose had to be put further into the sump i.e. deeper to avoid breaking surface. (you could do this as soon as you start)

I had tried bailing a bit into the original drain hole (which was taking a small trickle when I arrived) but it soon backed up.
I guess you could bail a load back behind the dam too - which would reduce the time it takes to empty.

I packed a bag with the last of the crap (rope, rags, rusty tins, Ever ready batteries, plastic sheeting, broken buckets etc.) that has being lying around for centuries - so thanks to the Eldon lads for carting it out for me last night.

So there you go - its all there ready to do. Please take care to leave the place as you find it.

Caution - the pitches beyond are all still rigged off manky crabs and all sorts of tat so descend/ascend at your own risk.
Hopefully, in time, these will be replaced by nice shiny DCA pull through systems.

 

[BenM]

Wow.. this is dragging up and old topic! Anyway..
Saturday me and Glen attempted the Giants figure 8. After setting the siphon going at around 2pm we headed off down Geology (leaving it rigged, just in case ). After a swim through the east cannal, and a wonderfully dodgy prusuk up filthy 5, we finally reached the other side of St V's at around 3:30pm.

And.. it was still sumped  . After sticking my head down into it, and having a feel around - we decided it was no good, and turned around.

On our way out, we again checked the sump at about 5:00pm... and still sumped  !! But it had certainly dropped. Probably around 20cm, with still 10cm of head left on the pipe which I had trapped to the floor as far in as possible. We had gained around 6m of airspace. 

So by our calculations, you would have maximum of around 5h siphoning (before the pipe broke the surface), and then still nobody knows if its passable or not... by which time, you could have easily got around to the other side!

Oh well, at least now we know!

 

[SamT]

Hmm - funny you should drag this up. Im off down there tomorrow.

I have been intending to double up the pipes for some time now - effectively halving the time it take to drain.

I'd like to ascertain a few things.

A, how high was the sump when you arrived.
- level with the pipe at the bottom of the dam wall.
- level with the top of the dam wall
- above or below these two points.

B, How far in did you take the pipe. There is a small chamber about 6 meters in. you can just about stoop in it and the level of the water deepens a bit.
This is where I place the pipe.

C, Was the syphon still going when you went back round.

D, 6 meters airspace from where to where.


Im guessing (hoping) that the water level was very high to start with, remember as a sump emptys - it will drop increasing quickly, as there is a smaller volumn of water (think cross sectional area of the passage) at the bottom.

I'll be interested to see how much its come back up by tomorrow (damn saturdays rain!!)

I was thinking of having a couple of ropes tied to the end of the pipe, that way - you can pull one to retrieve it from the depths, set the sypone going - and pull the other one (via  a mallion) to pull it into the deepest bit.

 

[SamT]

Anyone fancy a trip down there tomorrow night to help maul two rolls more of hose down.

2 bodies would be most helpful, we're meeting at 7pm at the car park.

 

[BenM]

Ok:
A) The water level was about 1inch above the top of the pipe in the dam wall
B) I took it in as far as I could (where it sumped), it should still be there now as we left it running
C) The syphon was still running when we returned on our way out (Still had 10cm of water left to syphon)
D) 6m airspace from where the pipe was, to the end of the sump (i.e: We had gained 6m).. but was very tight at the end so didn't fancy pushing it head first!

It really had dried out a lot, a good 6m from the dam was just mud! But that had taken 3h...

There are a few interesting little passages back there, and I was thinking the best way of keeping it easily accessible would be to divert/dam the water that feeds the sump.

I would come and help tomorrow... but I now live in Preston  .. so unfortunately I can't. Would be good to hear how quickly it fills back up tho!

Ben

 

[jasonbirder]

Well...my Mrs will kill me but what the hell...i'll try and be there to give a hand tomorrow...but i only count as half a body as i'm a bit lardy (should I count as 2 bodies perhaps)

 

[SamT]

Cool - cheers.

We've got a couple of novices with us so wont be a race.

 

[SamT]

So - the saga continues.

Bit of an abortion of a trip lastnight due to various late arrivals and no shows (not aimed you Jason).

In the end, we left the hose stashed in the entrance series. I rattled off ahead to start work at the sump whilst JB shepherded my two novice mates down the crabwalk. Cheers JB 

Sump was back up to the level of the pipe in the dam.

I set about drilling the hole for a resin bolt to attach the pump too.  (id forgotton a mastik gun though - so couldnt use the resin. ( ).

With that accomplished, I rigged up a pull through style system to allow the end of the pipe to be placed or retreived from the deep bit of the sump. It was set up in a bit of a rush so needs a bit of fine tuning. I tried it (set the siphon going - then dragged the hose into the sump) however on its journed into the sump - it 'hovered' up some gravel which got stuck in the entrance to hose. So that needs some thinking about. Think it probably needs some sort of weight ( strip tied to a flat stone perhaps) that will keep the hose down in the deep bit but just off the floor so that gravel and muck doesn't get sucked up.

The lads arrived just as I was packing up, we returned via the windpipe.  Just under 3 hours but at 10;55 - we'd missed the pub.

Jason Birder has very generously offered to carry the two rolls of hose down to the sump on thursday night.  :bow: This is stashed in the small blind passage on the left 3 meters before you turn up into the blasted passage on the way in. (the one that I always get confused with the blasted passage). There are two drag cords attached to each hose.

Jason - if it doesnt make it all the way, then no worries - just stash it some where obvious, and let us know via the board where it is. (if anyone else fancys helping it along on its way then cool).


Should be in next week some time to carry on work.

 

[Alan Brentnall]

Hi Sam, Keith Joule and I did a round trip tonight, so we took the two hoses with us, and dropped them off at St Vals. Had a look at what you've done so far - looks like it will be a good set up when it's completed.

 

[SamT]

Blimey - good effort, thats one each  :bow:

When we pulled the last lot in - it was quite straight forward with one in front pulling, and one behind unsnagging. but I bet one each was a pain. So - I owe you a beer.

Looks like JasonBirder has been let off.

So - plan is to drain the sump one day so we can work in the dry, Run the two hose's in parallel and strip tie them together.
Possibly attach them to the left wall with a couple of rawl plugs. or bury wedge them out the way.

Then sort out a weight for end that will keep the hose of the deck to prevent gravel being sucked up. I was thinking about a large flat piece of limestone - with a couple of holes drilled in it, so the hose can be strip tied to it.

Then just need to tinker with the pulley so that it works smoothly.

These things are never simple are they.

 

[Rob]

What we (mainly Henry) did when syphoning and pump the rasp sumps was to jubilee clip a section of meshing to the end of the pipe, to prevent sucking up gravel (especially important with hand pumps).
Simplified, the meshing was like a continuation of the pipe for about 4 inches, made out of strong stuff. This gave a large surface area for water to enter the end of the pipe so it diodn't matter if alf of it was int he gravel, it still worked.
Infact Henry might still have a few left over. There will almost certainatly be a few between the rasp sumps if your keen!
Food for thought.

 

[SamT]

yes - thought about something like that.

Problem is - that when you turn up - you need to attach the pump to that end of the hose to prime it and get it going. Ideally - you dont want to be having to undo and do up jubilee clips. They will soon rust and become impossible to undo.

If possible, I want it so that folk can just rock up - plug in the hose to the pump. prime the two syphone hoses, unplug the pump and leave it to do its thing. No need to take screwdrivers/knives/spare jubilee clips/wd40/bolt croppers/acetalene welding gear/lathe etc.

Of course if the A-team were ever to get stuck the far side of a sump - Im sure there would be a full work shop available for them.

" I aint getin' in no sump, goddam crazy foo "

 

[paul]

Blimey - good effort, thats one each  :bow:

When we pulled the last lot in - it was quite straight forward with one in front pulling, and one behind unsnagging. but I bet one each was a pain. So - I owe you a beer.

Looks like JasonBirder has been let off.

Looks like JasonBirder owes Keith and Alan a beer! 

I'll let them know if I see them tonight... 

 

[SamT]

Second hose has now been laid through the sump. We started the sump draining at 7pm on Wednesday night. After sitting it out for 3 hours (wehad a stove for a brew) we gave up. The sump was de-roofed Im sure -
but you couldn't quite see through and neither of us fancyied getting too wet.

JB (of this site) valiantly offered to return in the morning and finish the job.  :bow:

He reported that the sump was roughly at the same level as we'd left it the night before  i.e. - it must have dropped - the siphon broken - then filled back up a bit.
He set the siphon going and waited. After about an hour - the sump was low enough and the 2nd pipe was
dragged through.

JB reckons that the exit is indeed quite 'tight' and involved a bit of excavating of mud that had settled in the bottom to slip through - definatly not something you want to be doing while free diving so beware.  :read:

Personally - Im amazed at the volumn of water in the sump. It must have been an epic job to bail it. Does anyone know if it just used to get poured down the little drain hole by the dam.


It would be interesting to see exactly how long it takes now so people
know what to expect. Now we have two pipes it should take half the time to drain it - Im guessing at about 2 hours.
It would probably be an idea to send an advance party in on say Friday night to start the siphon  - ready for the team trip on saturday.

also - it would seem that the small air bell 6 meters from the dam is not the lowest section of the sump. Either you need to 'man' the syphon and move it in a bit deeper as the water level goes down - or, once its dry
- I need to re-arrange the pulley system to send the pipe to the deep bit. (I did notice an appropriatly placed thread in the roof for this.)

Cheers again to those who've helped. Theres still a bit of tinkering to do to get the pulley working properly. And of course the filthy five bolting properly.