Swildon's Hole Sump 1 rope

[cap n chris]

Popped back through sump 1 this morning to notice that the rope has been changed and a "new" bit of EN1891 semi-static kernmantle has appeared.

I guess it's been put in place by someone who thought the old rope could do with replacing; this is a nice thought and such selfless actions are to be commended. Unfortunately kernmantle rope is unsuitable for use as guidelines in sumps as it has the potential to cause nasty situations like that one which occurred to a well known Mendip caver (and cave diver) five or six years ago when similar rope was put through sump one.

In flood conditions the sheath of the rope gets damaged by abrasion from rocks tumbling underwater; this exposes the inner strands which act as a trap for the unwary. The caver in question dove through sump one and got his helmet caught in the net of strands which held him in place, underwater, unable to surface on either side of the sump. His presence of mind (and no doubt his training/experience as a cave diver) allowed him to think about it for a while and then turn upside down, allowing his nose to surface from where he was then able to cut himself free from the snaring rope. If this situation had occurred to pretty much anyone else it could well have proved fatal.

Therefore the rope presently in sump 1 is going to be removed and replaced with old style hawserlaid rope (which isn't dangerous once it's abraided) shortly.

So, thanks to whomever it was who did this but please note that modern ropes are not suitable; if you must place a rope through a sump it is best to use hawserlaid rope.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Chris

Your English is usually impeccable, but I think you meant 'selfless actions' not 'heartless actions' surely?

 

[Stupot]

Someone has taken my lead down to Sump 2.

Whoever that person was .....................     

Thanks.


Stu.

 

[cap n chris]

Chris

Your English is usually impeccable, but I think you meant 'selfless actions' not 'heartless actions' surely?

Peter, you are entirely correct and if I am able I shall alter the original post such that this small flurry of correspondence will be obsolete. I must have been a bit tired and had a lapse in concentration. Thanks for pointing it out. 

 

[Roger W]

Stu, you had me confused there for a moment.  "L-e-a-d" can mean more than one thing, and with the Cap'n talking about lengths of rope... :-\

Then I remembered your 2-kg blocks of the metallic stuff you had left by the entrance... 

Cap'n Chris, that's an interesting bit of advice, and something I'd never have thought of.

Mind you, I'm an awfully outdated and ignorant old pedant who is only really familiar with cable-laid hemp, and I don't really know all that much about that....  (Three strands for most purposes, I believe, but four strands for Mr Pierrepoint if I remember correctly.) 


Perhaps you can enlighten me - and anyone else who needs it.  Are the inner strands twisted at all in kernmantel, or are they only held together by the outer sheath?

 

[Tree Monkey]

                      Your have to start a thread on Ropes!

 

[graham]

Perhaps you can enlighten me - and anyone else who needs it.  Are the inner strands twisted at all in kernmantel, or are they only held together by the outer sheath?

They are straight. I am not certain but I think that Messrs Pierrepoint (pére et fils) used three strand hawser lay like everybody else.

 

[cap n chris]

Graham is correct. Like he and I they are straight.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Graham is correct. Like he and I they are straight.

???  The 'ropelets' that form the core of a kernmantle rope are most definitely not straight - they spiral, rather like mini hawserlaid ropes.  It is the degree of spiral that determines the amount of stretch and whether the rope is designated static or dynamic.

 

[Duncan Price]

The caver in question dove through sump one and got his helmet caught in the net of strands which held him in place, underwater, unable to surface on either side of the sump.

Sorry to be a pedant but was the caver American?  A British caver would have "dived" through sump one...

EDIT: pendant -> pedant.  Hoisted by my own petard...!

 

[paul]

The caver in question dove through sump one and got his helmet caught in the net of strands which held him in place, underwater, unable to surface on either side of the sump.

Sorry to be a pendant but was the caver American?  A British caver would have "dived" thorugh sump one...

You're a pendant?! Stop hanging around! ;-) 

 

[cap n chris]

.... Anyhoo, my BEC chum turned up with hawserlaid rope. Trouble was it wasn't hawserlaid, it was kernmantle. He now knows what kernmantle rope is and vaguely understands what hawserlaid is. To summarise, the rope hasn't been changed yet.

So, in-a-get-there-in-the-end-round-about-way-of-asking-politely..... does anyone have any free hawserlaid rope that they are just dying to have put into Swildon's Hole sump 1. The honour is so great for any piece of rope that surely there should also be a handsome bribe, nay very generous (thrice nay; superlatively over the top in its generosity) on offer to the person who bestows such esteem upon such a humble item. Yeh, as if.

So.... rope. Anyone?... Anyone?... Bueller?....

 

[Stupot]

Take the rope out

Make it more "hardcore", won't be a tangle hazzard then .............


Stu.

 

[Hughie]

.... Anyhoo, my BEC chum turned up with hawserlaid rope. Trouble was it wasn't hawserlaid, it was kernmantle. He now knows what kernmantle rope is and vaguely understands what hawserlaid is. To summarise, the rope hasn't been changed yet.

So, in-a-get-there-in-the-end-round-about-way-of-asking-politely..... does anyone have any free hawserlaid rope that they are just dying to have put into Swildon's Hole sump 1. The honour is so great for any piece of rope that surely there should also be a handsome bribe, nay very generous (thrice nay; superlatively over the top in its generosity) on offer to the person who bestows such esteem upon such a humble item. Yeh, as if.

So.... rope. Anyone?... Anyone?... Bueller?....

I've got loads and loads of hawserlaid stylee polyprop. I've got a feeling it costs something in the region of 11p/metre.
Not sure if the caving purists will accept it as suitable tho. I once found 40 feet of it lying on the side of a road (had fallen of a lorry) and used it for many years as a caving handline. Contrary to opinion it's amazingly strong and resilient.

Have got/can get some new 11mm if it's any use - it's fairly strong, 700kg cows can lean on it all day long with no adverse effects.

 

[Roger W]

Polyprop - floats, if I remember correctly.

Would that be a problem in a sump?

 

[cap n chris]

Thank you all for your kind offers but really it should be hemp (!) hawserlaid; when it frays it disintegrates and washes away, leaving no enduring hazard other than fluffy bits.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Polyprop is very prone to abrasion damage - in less time then it takes for your kernmantle to expose a core the polyprop will probably have completely severed.  I'm not sure why knickers are getting in such a twist about replacing the kernmantle - you've probably got about 10 years before a problem arises.

 

[cap n chris]

:-[

Hmm....

If anyone finds a short piece of rope just down from the twenty would they, err (not too sure how to put this), kindly let me know `cos it'd be nice to have it back!.... 

And everything was going so well until it washed over the edge....

Set a new personal best for the round trip. (Not that I was timing it for any specific reason).

 

[Stupot]

In the words of H Simpson ........... DOH!

But that's rich coming from me as I dropped my ladder off the edge of the 20 and had to climb down
to retrieve it 


Stu.

 

[SamT]

Anyone?... Anyone?... Bueller?....

completly off topic - but that just made me guffaw, - we used to say it all the time as kids in 6th form "Anyone, Anyone - bueller?"     

Thanks chris - thats just taken me right back to being 16 on the back seat of our school bus.