Thefts from Caves (was From Giants Hole)
- Thread starter Phild
- Start date
pwhole
Well-known member
Suicide Cave in Winnats is slowly but surely getting trashed in a similar way - I was in on Saturday and someone had recently built an open fire in the entrance chamber - litter everywhere. Me and Victoria at DCA cleaned fluorescent spraypaint 'satanic' graffiti off the walls only three months ago. In the 90 mins we were in there, about 15 other people came in, nearly all loud youths with phones, who shouted their way through the cave until they saw our lights and then got rather confused as to what to do next. I realised early on I'd left my bag at the top of the first pitch with my phone in, and have never free-climbed back up so fast. Most left again, but two insisted on setting off into the cave with their phones for lights - and came back two mins later having nearly crippled themselves. I did tell them.
It was horrible, frankly. Never again in daytime.
It was horrible, frankly. Never again in daytime.
mrodoc
Well-known member
This issue is nationwide. Pridhamsleigh Cavern inDevon was mentioned in a Wild guide and we met a couple exploring without helmets but with head lamps. They were very nice but weren't the first in there. It is easy to get lost in there and I wrote to the publishers pointing out their warnings were not quite up to scratch. At our remote dig on the Quantocks we have maillons stolen by reaching through a grill on the manhole entrance (fiortunately the SRT rope we had left was rebelayed further down) and at another site they brought a portable angle grinder to open another shaft (would have got a shock as our fixed ladder ended in space 15 metre above the bottom) It is an indirect result of an expanding population increasing the number of wallies about - that is my theory anyway!
pwhole
Well-known member
I think one difference is that in the past the wallies weren't connected to each other digitally, and they certainly weren't writing letters. It can be connected almost entirely to the explosion of social media, and then the more subtle social dislocation of the pandemic. There's always been a lot of wallies around, we just never noticed them as much as they were either doing a hard job, drinking in the pub after the hard job, or asleep. BTW, I'm mostly referring to men here, in case it wasn't obvious. The few women that came into Suicide Cave didn't shout.
Cantclimbtom
Well-known member
What you need is to install some stone doors, people with only phones to see where they are going won't see them, but a good lamp will show. https://www.28dayslater.co.uk/threads/hever-caves.52287/ So how's the DCA getting on with their stone door program? I lay blame squarely on the DCA for neglecting this issue.
Babyhagrid
Well-known member
A good squalid crawl or a duck would probably deter most explorers. There a reason Daren doesn't have a gate
pwhole
Well-known member
The problem we have here is that as it's a SSSI, any serious intervention like a gate will probably prove difficult to justify to Natural England - not that they are any use at all any longer, and we may as well be talking to the Saucepan Man - DCA are having to take the lead on conservation now out of necessity, as they fundamentally don't have a team for this, though we clearly don't have any legal clout. But Suicide Cave is on National Trust land, so as landowners it might be possible to convince them, as we have a good relationship, and they can sort out NE themselves.
One option were intervention allowed at Suicide, would be to completely block off the larger of the two entrances with a solid mortared stone wall (with bat/ventilation holes), leaving the small crawl as the only way in. That would remove a lot of the problem immediately as it's very difficult to crawl effectively with a mobile phone as a light, and they would probably bang their heads too - all good stuff, as most are headbangers. It wouldn't stop legit cavers at all.
An even more extreme option would be to block off both bottom entrances (with bat/ventilation holes), re-excavate the original top entrance and put a proper cap and access grille on it. Anyone breaking in would then have a Faraway Tree-style slide into muddy hell, and they would never go near a cave again - a rescue would be easy. Again, it wouldn't stop legit cavers at all, and would probably make for a much more entertaining round trip. My trowels are standing by.
As for Giants, get a massive hardened steel gate on it, and a security camera. Been saying it for years, on the record.
One option were intervention allowed at Suicide, would be to completely block off the larger of the two entrances with a solid mortared stone wall (with bat/ventilation holes), leaving the small crawl as the only way in. That would remove a lot of the problem immediately as it's very difficult to crawl effectively with a mobile phone as a light, and they would probably bang their heads too - all good stuff, as most are headbangers. It wouldn't stop legit cavers at all.
An even more extreme option would be to block off both bottom entrances (with bat/ventilation holes), re-excavate the original top entrance and put a proper cap and access grille on it. Anyone breaking in would then have a Faraway Tree-style slide into muddy hell, and they would never go near a cave again - a rescue would be easy. Again, it wouldn't stop legit cavers at all, and would probably make for a much more entertaining round trip. My trowels are standing by.
As for Giants, get a massive hardened steel gate on it, and a security camera. Been saying it for years, on the record.
pwhole
Well-known member
The one at Wapping Mine in Matlock Bath is similar, in that there's just a horizontal slot at the top, but it still gets plenty of visitors, and still needed a rescue recently after someone got injured just inside. But agreed, it must put off a substantial percentage.
My big worry with Suicide is that if folks regularly start fires in there, there's a chance it could eventually weaken the rock. I suspect people do light fires because they know the smoke will go outside pretty quickly with two large entrances - it would fill up pretty quickly with the large one blocked. It seems awful to contemplate it, but it's just so public, and the volume of people in winter is substantial - and it is used as a toilet too, as it's a convenience, haha. All good reasons to do it.
My big worry with Suicide is that if folks regularly start fires in there, there's a chance it could eventually weaken the rock. I suspect people do light fires because they know the smoke will go outside pretty quickly with two large entrances - it would fill up pretty quickly with the large one blocked. It seems awful to contemplate it, but it's just so public, and the volume of people in winter is substantial - and it is used as a toilet too, as it's a convenience, haha. All good reasons to do it.
Babyhagrid
Well-known member
The entrance to lesser Garth has a few burnt embers from people starting fires. And the occasional bit of rubbish. And there was a tent pitched down there for quite a while recently beyond a ladder pitch and right squeeze. The cave entrance is barred quite effectively and a squeeze through boulders is now used by cavers. Hopefully people will leave it alone and not attract the attention of the mine next door.
StoneyGraham
New member
I've read alot of debate over how to restrict access to caves where its needed and although in theory gates provide the best solution the issue is cost, land owner permission, and quite possibly natural england permission. And none of these things are easy to come by (case in point people have been talking about gateing giants for years).
To me it seems like an alternative that bypasses all of this red tape is natural barriers.
My grandfather has been using natural barriers in the form of shrubs and trees to prevent vehicle access to private land for years, and i have recently used thorny shrubs to provide perimeter security against thiefs on foot to a large barn.
If a few hawthorn trees and brambles shrubs popped up in a field just outside some partucular cave entrances no one would bat an eye lid.... theyre inexpensive, they start off small and covert and naturally grow in fields anyway (so no permission needed from land owner if you're cheeky) in a couple of years you could have a dense brambly barrier that would scare off anyone not in coveralls and boots.
Would require a special group to be set up outside of the DCA and any particular club so no one gets into bother but its an innocent enough mission... planting trees
meanderthal
Member
Clearly theft of anothers belongings (rope, maillions etc) is out of order. But how can you justify restricting access to others of something we all get a great deal of enjoyment out of because we are 'bona-fide' cavers...?
Look how pissed off most cavers get when access to 'bona-fide' cavers is restricted.
I do not agree with theft, graffiti and wonton damage. But neither do I agree with elitism.
Look how pissed off most cavers get when access to 'bona-fide' cavers is restricted.
I do not agree with theft, graffiti and wonton damage. But neither do I agree with elitism.
Chocolate fireguard
Active member
I hadn't realised that people willing to go to a bit of trouble to get a key or an adjustable spanner were part of an elite.
Things are worse than I thought.
Things are worse than I thought.
meanderthal
Member
Fair point.
pwhole
Well-known member
Also we have to clean the mess up after these arseholes on a regular basis - unpaid. So yes, I'm happy to be in an elite in that context. And as I pointed out, it wouldn't restrict cavers at all.
BTW, we found fresh excrement and a full toilet roll dropped into the entrance passage of Winnats Head Cave today. Lovely.
BTW, we found fresh excrement and a full toilet roll dropped into the entrance passage of Winnats Head Cave today. Lovely.
2xw
Active member
I think you'd be hard pressed to persuade the National Trust to make significant (and very difficult) efforts to get permission to make massive changes to what is a pretty sensitive SSSI, especially for something as trivial as someone shitting in it (they're quite happy for the sheep to do that!). In terms of a Potentially Damaging Operation bricking something up would be considered very extreme especially when the applicant can't demonstrate that they've done anything else to prevent the issue occuring.
Maybe we should stop cleaning it up. That cavers do this for free only encourages landowners and NE to neglect their statuary duties.
Alternatively, whack up a few signs "due to litter and human excrement this cave entrance is covered by CCTV"
Maybe we should stop cleaning it up. That cavers do this for free only encourages landowners and NE to neglect their statuary duties.
Alternatively, whack up a few signs "due to litter and human excrement this cave entrance is covered by CCTV"
pwhole
Well-known member
The National Trust put a steel safe door on Old Tor Mine, and concreted-up the three big holes that used to open out onto the hill, specifically to control access to prevent damage - the key is available to cavers at their office. We blocked off another 'unknown' Blue John Mine which we found recently, at their request. It's still accessible, just not as easy. The entrance is full of rubbish though.
In terms of SSSI sensitivity, give over - the whole area is covered in plastic bottles and food packaging, the traffic up and down the pass is insane, landowners can do whatever they like, and the tourists don't even know what a SSSI is - and few of them can read - there are signs already, which we paid for. Lets not forget all the 'modifications' to showcaves. I'd love to actually install CCTV in places like this, and have been suggesting it for years. Lighting fires in overhanging cave entrances is also not a good idea as the heat stress, especially in winter, can be catastrophic.
Ironic that I got told off for not being conservation-minded enough in another thread on here.
In terms of SSSI sensitivity, give over - the whole area is covered in plastic bottles and food packaging, the traffic up and down the pass is insane, landowners can do whatever they like, and the tourists don't even know what a SSSI is - and few of them can read - there are signs already, which we paid for. Lets not forget all the 'modifications' to showcaves. I'd love to actually install CCTV in places like this, and have been suggesting it for years. Lighting fires in overhanging cave entrances is also not a good idea as the heat stress, especially in winter, can be catastrophic.
Ironic that I got told off for not being conservation-minded enough in another thread on here.
