Trainers' advice

[Burt]

just revisited this thread hoping for something useful, but DIBA.*



DIBA - my new abbreviation I've just made up. Descended into bollocks again.

 

[cap n chris]

A classic scenario from a decade ago:

Working as a freelancer - get a corporate day and pre-session coffee/planning allows a browse of the medical forms - multiple participants listed numerous complex-sounding conditions with an array of medications with similarly complex-sounding names; the upshot was that no-one had a clue whether the potential participants were likely to drop dead or have parts of their bodies fall off while caving. I said "I'm not a GP so cannot interpret what any of this means, and make a judgment based thereon, but my hunch is that they shouldn't go underground". They all went underground.

Question for you: if you ask people to list their medical ailments should you take any notice of the essay-long answers or just take their money and plough on regardless?

My preference is to veto their inclusion just to be on the safe side.

 

[graham]

A classic scenario from a decade ago:

Question for you: if you ask people to list their medical ailments should you take any notice of the essay-long answers or just take their money and plough on regardless?

My preference is to veto their inclusion just to be on the safe side.

I'm sure he won't mind you knowing, but one of the people you were caving with on Thursday uses an inhaler containing complex named 'stuff' for his asthma. Would you have taken him on a trip, I wonder.

Asthma and complex sounding drugs for it are both very common these days.

 

[cap n chris]

Would you have taken him on a trip, I wonder.

Hypothetical scenario: taking an asthmatic caving, professionally? If they were routinely subject to serious attacks? Most likely not.

Going caving with a fellow caver who happens to have asthma? No problem. I'm not their Mum.

 

[bograt]

Back in the day when I used to lead fresher trips at college, one of the participants was asthmatic and he said the air in caves made him feel a lot better than ever before. Ok, nothing too strenuous but if he felt he was up to it, why not?
Isn't there a place on the continent that uses caves as a therapy for lung problems?

 

[christine]

I found many enquirers lacked even the committment to take up my invitation to ring me to arrange a trip, even though I'd taken time to and effort to answer carefully all their questions in their original letter (pre-wwww). I could never think why. Had I done something wrong? I believe now that such people may be the harder to deal with if they do turn up, because I think that they expect full, "instant" gratification, preferably from others' efforts. I've seen similar elsewhere so it's not confined to caving.

Christine's pre-trip questionnnaires may help to minimise having to struggle with obese or excessively unfit beginners by putting the onus on them to decide if such a pursuit is right for them; or if they think improving their fitness first would be adviseable. It may also encourage the more committed while discouraging the dilettantes who want all the onus to be on the leader.

Even more importantly it may weed out the minority who ignore advice or instruction even when obviously needing it. I've not personally encountered this but I know of one woman who has recently been refused membership of at least two major clubs through risking endangering herself and her team-mates by her attitude. 

Obviously most of those who try caving once or twice decide it's not their thing and take up Synchronised Crochet or something instead, but I find it rather sad and a bit offensive when people proudly tell me, "Oh, I've been caving" then it becomes clear that they think Caving is summed up by their few basic trips. If they said they'd tried but didn't like it then, fine: at least that's honest.

Many people now do want and expect others to think for them, be responsible for them; yet want and expect instant, full results or answers with no skill or effort on their part, in many walks of life. Do you caving instructors find many of your clients are like this? 

On slowing down the "tigers", I'd suggest flattering them by asking them to "help" - before handing them the rope bag or whatever! 

Several points here...I'll have a go at responding (not necessarily in the right order - to quote the great Eric Morcambe..)

With regard to the first type of customer, I had a similar thing a while back where I was working quite hard for a booking which was sporadic with email and quite hard work. Fortunately, it coincided with a meeting with a business advisor and she gave me some good advice which I will never forget....she wafted her hand and said "You don't need people like that. Move on..."

This is a lot easier for me to say and do, doing it as a part timer, than someone earning their bread and butter trying to make a living. The contact went dark on me and, in hindsight, I was glad they did.

The next point, I've never had anyone have any problems filling in a quick form and alarm bells would ring if they did. It shows them I take things seriously and expect them to do the same.

The next point - Please be careful judging people who only try caving once or twice.
I took a couple on a relatively demanding day out for their first trip once as it appeared they were quite fit and did a lot of climbing and mountaineering. They were also scuba divers and keen skiiers. They were not short of cash, quite 'high up' in their professions and seemed to excel at many of their leisure pursuits.
I was keen to get them into a caving club where they could flourish...but they gave me a very, I think, reasonable response, that they were already members of at least 3 other clubs (diving/climbing etc) and just did not have the time to commit to everything they tried their hand at.
They were quite happy to cave once or twice a year, to enjoy it and do it in a stress free way (namely I'd sort the trip/kit for them) - so, there are any number of reasons why people don't 'take it up' - and some are quite reasonable and valid and in no way cast doubt on their ability as a caver. These two were outstanding - but knew that they had enough going on already to commit in a bigger way.
I can assure you their next stop was not crochet......

Maybe I'm lucky in the type of client I get...or maybe I attract a certain type...but my groups get handed a laminated survey at the entrance and are asked to navigate to a certain point in the cave from the get go.
I gave my last group some 'scenarios' to work on i.e light failures, a faked injury where we went through what we would do etc and got all the emergency toys out.
If they thought the were in for a sausage factory follow-my-leader type of thing, they were be a bit (pleasantly) surprised! They had been with me once before and I upped the ante on each trip so that they can progress. One has just started buying her own caving kit and helped herself to a club membership form 

I think, rather than assuming clients just want an easy ride and therefore offering one (because, let's face it, follow my leader on the tourist trip is easy on both parts, right?) leaders/instructors should be working their gnadgers off to inspire, teach, educate and motivate at every turn.
If all you want to do is take them on a 'standard' trip because it makes your day easier...fine....but don't expect more than a 'standard' client.
One thing I always try to remember is this:
If you're not finishing the day more knackered than the clients, you haven't done as good a job as you could have. 
(I am of course meaning mentally, not physically  )

With regard to asthma, I'm again very lucky that I'm a Paramedic by profession, so I have more insight than most, but for reference if anyone ticked the asthma box it would prompt a phone call from me.
I would ask:
* When did you last have an asthma attack? (some adults/teenagers will state they are asthmatic but they actually only had childhood asthma and may not have had an attack for many years, making them low risk)
* How often do your attacks occur? (Several times a year or more are high risk, once a year, less so.)
*What triggers your asthma? (If it's exertion, think twice. If it's hayfever, they may be Ok underground but keep an eye on them on the surface on the way to the cave.)
I would always insist they take an inhaler with them.
Coupled with the fitness form, you get a much better picture.

On a happy note, here's my lot having a giggle in the emergency shelter. Lovely and warm in there.......

 

[glyders]

I often find myself fighting the corner for asthmatics. The number of times I've had other teachers etc. telling me a kid can't do an activity (caving/climbing/orienteering...) because they have asthma! The most impressive was that a 16yo couldn't be allowed for a walk on a beach because he might have an attack and fall over where no-one could see him (he hadn't actually had an attack since he was 14). The staff usually look rather confused when I point out that they seem quite happy with me being responsible for the children despite having asthma myself.
I have to admit to the only instance where I knowingly break a 'H&S' rule. I sometimes work for an organisation where they have a rule that no-one with asthma is allowed to multi-pitch climb. They do have my medical form from when I joined so I have never felt the need to remind them about my asthma in this situation.

Having said that there are two classes of asthmatics. There are those whose asthma is under control and those where it isn't. To me the former shouldn't be stopped from doing things, though obviously they should have an extra eye kept on them just in case. Simple things like making sure they pre-dose before exercise.
In the outdoors I have always pre-dosed and never ever had a problem. In fact, despite not having had an attack for years I get through ventolin at quite a rate as I run most days. Those who don't manage their asthma need to get it sorted (been there myself). The health services are very good at this and in most cases nowadays it can be dealt with.

 

[Pitlamp]

Instructed caving and recreational caving are very different and I think they should be kept very separate. If instructors are not happy with the scheme then they need to take it to the  local LCMLA or CIC panel.

I'm really glad you pointed out that first bit Gollum; if ever they did become too merged the implications for both could be very ugly.

 

[bograt]

Instructed caving and recreational caving are very different and I think they should be kept very separate. If instructors are not happy with the scheme then they need to take it to the  local LCMLA or CIC panel.

I'm really glad you pointed out that first bit Gollum; if ever they did become too merged the implications for both could be very ugly.

I know you Pitlamp- and I hope that was irony rather than sarchasm

 

[Pitlamp]

It was neither - it was a genuine comment.

Amateur caving should be kept apart from the paid situation because normal club cavers, whist extremely competent, may not be familiar with all the rules & regulations related to workplace activities. Conversely, I'd not want to see too much influence from people who are paid to go caving creeping into the club scene because they'd (inevitably - but through no fault of their own) bring with them all the baggage of these govenment rules & regulations. That would stifle the freedom of club cavers to evolve techniques and equipment.

Please understand I'm, NOT against people running caving trips for a living; most do it to a high standard. There is clearly a demand for this service - and there's an equally clear need for that aspect of caving to be regulated. But please keep all that out of normal caving so we retain the freedom to innovate.

 

[kay]

Having said that there are two classes of asthmatics. There are those whose asthma is under control and those where it isn't. To me the former shouldn't be stopped from doing things, though obviously they should have an extra eye kept on them just in case. Simple things like making sure they pre-dose before exercise.

The questioning for things like asthma, which can be controlled, should be more about "what effect does this have on your day to day life" than "what do you take for it". A friend of mine has had asthma since childhood; he has two prescribed drugs and his last attack was over 55 years ago. You might feel apprehensive about taking him caving because of his age, but I would suggest that his asthma is not a problem.

I wonder whether it's worth looking at the questionnaires they use for risk assessment for travel insurance? They face the same problem of deciding whether a person is at extra risk of an epic. There are interesting supplementaries that are asked - for example, if you have high blood pressure, they ask whether you take more than two medications - presumably someone who has more than two meds is more severe problems and is more likely to have a stroke.

 

[kay]

The next point - Please be careful judging people who only try caving once or twice.
.... - so, there are any number of reasons why people don't 'take it up' - and some are quite reasonable and valid and in no way cast doubt on their ability as a caver. These two were outstanding - but knew that they had enough going on already to commit in a bigger way.
I can assure you their next stop was not crochet......

Thank you for saying this. This is not quite what you were saying, but it is possible to enjoy being underground - both the beauty, and the curiosity of "where does this hole go?" without ever aspiring to achieve a high level of competence in technical caving. But too often comments such as

"Obviously most of those who try caving once or twice decide it's not their thing and take up Synchronised Crochet or something instead

are made, which come over as indicating contempt. If someone who doesn't have the desire or the physical ability for the full range of caving, do you (cavers in general) really feel it is contemptible for them to continue caving within their own level of competence? Or do you (cavers in general) feel that they are only capable of something which is not just non-physical but also totally pointless?

 

[christine]

It was neither - it was a genuine comment.

Amateur caving should be kept apart from the paid situation because normal club cavers, whist extremely competent, may not be familiar with all the rules & regulations related to workplace activities.

I'm trying to be fair here..I think you are perhaps exaggerating somewhat in this comment and scaremongering. I can't think of any 'rules' in led trips that go beyond common sense on any other club caving trip. Sure, you may have to help novices out a bit...but no more than you would help a mate on a club trip if they asked for a hand on a climb or something. Please don't invent the idea that there is red tape wrapping us all up that we are going to impose on club caving. It doesn't exist - and it is clear from many of your comments that you have very little understanding of the LCMLA scheme or training.
I feel I have to put this right here, as I'm both a paid leader and club caver and have experience on both sides and not just one.

Conversely, I'd not want to see too much influence from people who are paid to go caving creeping into the club scene because they'd (inevitably - but through no fault of their own) bring with them all the baggage of these govenment rules & regulations. That would stifle the freedom of club cavers to evolve techniques and equipment.

You see, using words like 'baggage' and implying that leaders want to 'stifle' club caving is based on what, exactly?
God forbid we might actually want to use a lifeline on a ladder (climbing ladders unlifelined caused a large number of deaths several decades ago and things and attitidues changed - not as a result of commercial leaders but because it was safer.) Does it not occur to you that leaders and clients who then want to take up caving in a club might actually BRING something POSITIVE to a club?
Perhaps they might actually just want to go caving with the club and are happy to go with the flow? Why is this so bad in your eyes?
There are some aspects (more so at level 2) where we do things slightly differently - but that is on a safety basis - it's nothing to do with the government! Cave Instructors have devised a way of keeping everyone safe on their first trips. What they do after that in a club environment is their business entirely.

Please understand I'm, NOT against people running caving trips for a living; most do it to a high standard. There is clearly a demand for this service - and there's an equally clear need for that aspect of caving to be regulated. But please keep all that out of normal caving so we retain the freedom to innovate.

Your wish is my command. I shall make sure all my clients are refused entry to caving clubs, for all the damage they will cause.

When hell freezes over....

 

[Pitlamp]

I don't think you've understood me. People who make a living out of caving are cavers anyway. I'm sure they'd not want to affect normal club caving adversely.

The problem is that any professional situation brings with it a whole raft of red tape. If the two became overly integrated this red tape (which is the government's fault, not yours) could start creeping into normal caving. This would be the last thing we'd want because an important reason many of us enjoy caving is the brief escape it offers from all that. Trust me - I'm not blaming you!

The paperwork involved in any professional situation is very different from club caving. Please let's keep it that way. There's absolutely no need to try and legitimise caving in professional situations because I never queried that - it's fine by me. I'd just not want the type of approach (note choice of words) required by a professional situation to become the norm in mainstream caving.

Oh, before I forget - yes please, keep up the good work of feeding newcomers into clubs; you do clubs a great service in this way.

 

[bograt]

Oh, before I forget - yes please, keep up the good work of feeding newcomers into clubs; you do clubs a great service in this way.

Especially as a supply of willing Sherpas for divers!

 

[Pitlamp]

Eyup Bograt - so that's why she's taken up instructing . . .  A masterful plan indeed.

I bet both me and Christine would drink to that idea!

 

[christine]

The problem is that any professional situation brings with it a whole raft of red tape. If the two became overly integrated this red tape (which is the government's fault, not yours) could start creeping into normal caving.

What you need to please understand is that caving clubs are amateur organisations - which means that they can never be governed by the HSE, which only applies to people at work. What you are worried about can never happen. So please stop worrying about it.
If the red tape was that bad, or even existed at all, I wouldn't do it.
For reference, this exists from the HSE: http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/downloads/waharguideactivity.pdf
No 'rules' as such, just common sense guidelines and there is nothing in there that worries me or the vast majority of leaders. It can and should worry any rogue gung ho eejits who flout basic safety when they have clients in their care - and that is all it is designed for.
It has absolutely nothing to do with club caving and would be impossible to impliment, even if the most determined tried.

The paperwork involved in any professional situation is very different from club caving. Please let's keep it that way.

Sorry, but I disagree. To lead professinally I need insurance (same as you need insurance to be in a club) and I have to pay a measley sum to join the BCA scheme (once every several years) which is a much easier form to fill in than joining a club!
That's it. No more paperwork (unless you lead children, which I don't).
Anything else I generate is self-inflicted - Forms and such are something I CHOOSE to do. I have had no correspondance from the government or the BCA scheme telling me I must. As I have a registered profession as a Paramedic, I have an interest in protecting my position, which is why I am anal about paperwork. For others, they like to protect their business and reputation. In reality, getting names and suit sizes is all they need worry about. Most choose to do more, but it is entirely their choice. I have written risk assessments, others have mental ones. Again, nobody is breathing down our necks - it's down to how we choose to do things.

Oh, before I forget - yes please, keep up the good work of feeding newcomers into clubs; you do clubs a great service in this way.

It is difficult getting people into clubs, which can be quite tight knit and aren't always happy to cave with people they don't know from Adam. I do my best, which has always been my aim, to get the keen ones caving with a club. But ultimately they are adults and will do what they choose.

Bograt - you've busted me. Ready made and trained sherpas. Not as daft as I look 

 

[christine]

Eyup Bograt - so that's why she's taken up instructing . . .  A masterful plan indeed.

I bet both me and Christine would drink to that idea!

One beach at a time....... 

I think a lot of them would be quite good at it too.....

 

[Pitlamp]

Excellent - keep 'em coming! 

By the way Christine - I actually don't think you're entirely right but I like you far too much to argue. (I'm not taking the mickey here - just being honest; life's too short to fall out with friends.)

 

[bograt]

In the days of B stop photography, they were also willing and useful flash gun operatives.