Trainers' advice

cap n chris

Well-known member
christine said:
One thing I always do (and I'm lucky that I have the time to do this - many outdoor centres just don't) is make time to find out a little about my group beforehand

That's good/best practice. Profiling is key.

Re: pre-trip fitness questioning - just ask them to state how many triathlons they do in the course of a year. That'll sort out the wheat from the chaff.  ;)

Pre-caving profiling could be much more vigorous than it presently is (presuming it even occurs at all, that is) insofar as I know of other outdoors stuff where if you're over 40 you have to have a doctor's certificate signed (and paid for privately!) before you can attend.
 

bograt

Active member
OffS, don't you give them a pre-trip briefing, tell them what to expect, and sus them out as to whether they can handle it?
 

christine

Active member
Of course.
But I don't think it's fair to take someones (non-refundable except for weather) money, let them (and me..) turn up, after they have told you they are up for it, having driven a long way (I've had clients drive so far they have stayed overnight) and then realise they only have one leg or - as Chris put it so well - can't support their own body weight.

I like to give them - and me - and the rest of the group - a fighting chance. It's about being professional and spotting issues before they show up, only to be disappointed in the car park.
The form takes about 3 minutes to fill in and includes contact details, gear sizes, any medical issues and fitness. They click 'send' and it magically ends up in my inbox.
'Winging it' with the public who have never been caving before - and who you have never met - is unlikely to end well.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
christine said:
'Winging it' with the public who have never been caving before - and who you have never met - is unlikely to end well.

I think many cavers would be gobsmacked to discover that a big chunk of society have absolutely NO IDEA whatsoever what caving actually is and from standard Q&A stuff the general idea is that they are going to do a showcave with a helmet on. It's only when you've been caving that you know what caving is, so it would seem. We lose sight of that at our peril. The caver knows what's involved and needs to be cautious about leading someone who is  W A Y  beyond their capability into a gravity-slide.
 

christine

Active member
I concur. Despite being dressed up in full clobber and having been told at length what to expect, one or two are still (very pleasantly) surprised that they are going into a 'real' cave  :confused:
And then of course you get the ones who click '5' all the way through......
I occasionally get people who move through a cave like they have been doing it all their lives.

One very funny (not for him!) moment happened recently when I bumped into a senior instructor in Goatchurch, who was in hot pursuit of his charges, sweat dripping off him...
This was so unusual I asked if he was alright....to which I got a sideways look and the response:
"They are from the Russian Army - and they're b****y  'ard!!!"
Before running off again  :LOL:  :confused:
 

christine

Active member
Oh, believe me, we would LOVE to.
Sadly, commercial trips are not permitted in most of the caves best suited to them.
Another topic, sadly.
We have what we got. And we have to lump it.
(pss - why are you shouting? I'm neither blind nor deaf  ;))
 

bograt

Active member
Sorry Christine, wasn't shouting, just that I was vary active in cave leadership a good while ago and can't get my head round modern systems and it bugs me, Derbyshires not like that (or it didn't used to be). :)
 

christine

Active member
:)
Well, nudging back towards the OP topic - having trained under the LCMLA scheme fairly recently (despite vast caving experience - I felt I should do the training as I knew leading was very different to club caving - and had nothing to lose...) I've been taught and assessed by 3 different instructors and been closely advised by two others. None of them have stated "You can't..." when it comes to using appropriate equipment.
In the vein of the way the thread has descended, the advice is more to make sure that the cave (or trip in that cave) is suited to the caver so that these instances where you have to pull 'extra' equipment out of the bag is avoided. Which I think is what you are trying to say Bograt? And also what I was trying to say, in that prevention is better than cure.
For level 1 trips in terms of equipment (in addition to your usual emergency pack) you shouldn't need more than a belt each, couple of krabs and a handline (for adults; maybe harnesses or slings for rugrats - which I avoid like the plague anyway :yucky:)
But I don't think anyone would be hung at dawn either for taking along other items they feel they would need.
 

graham

New member
Cap'n Chris said:
christine said:
'Winging it' with the public who have never been caving before - and who you have never met - is unlikely to end well.

I think many cavers would be gobsmacked to discover that a big chunk of society have absolutely NO IDEA whatsoever what caving actually is and from standard Q&A stuff the general idea is that they are going to do a showcave with a helmet on. It's only when you've been caving that you know what caving is, so it would seem. We lose sight of that at our peril. The caver knows what's involved and needs to be cautious about leading someone who is  W A Y  beyond their capability into a gravity-slide.

Completely agree. I remember a CIC telling me that as a professional it was his duty to give the clients an experience come what may. I remember reporting that conversation to a solicitor who commented that there was an accident waiting to happen. (The CIC hadn't been involved in the - avoidable - accident that was the subject of our meeting.)
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
graham said:
I remember a CIC telling me that as a professional it was his duty to give the clients an experience come what may.

Probably another thread there, I reckon. Clearly I hold differing views, e.g. come what may it was his duty to give his clients professional guidance; on rare occasions the advice might be not to go caving. The trick is knowing whether it is going to be hard and my hunch is that if you pre-emptively suspect that you need to include rescue hauling tackle in order to extricate your charge(s) from the cave then the alarm bells should be ringing loud and clear.


To paraphrase: "...the cave is this way, the cake shop is that way. I think you're better off going that way".
 

Andy Sparrow

Active member
graham said:
I remember a CIC telling me that as a professional it was his duty to give the clients an experience come what may.

Did he mean come what may in the sense of the ultimate dire consequences, or come what may present itself emerging from the minibus?  I think I know the answer, and the difference is profound.

Yes, as instructors we have to do our best to look after the group and keep them safe come what may.  We may have children who are nervous, who are overweight, or have special needs.  One thing I have learned over the years is that it's impossible to prejudge how any individual will perform.  My instincts are pretty good at guessing who may need special attention but kids are full of surprises.  That's our job, to do the best for our groups come what may.





 

Gollum

Member
Instructed caving and recreational caving are very different and I think they should be kept very separate. If instructors are not happy with the scheme then they need to take it to the  local LCMLA or CIC panel.
 

robjones

New member
Been following this discussion out of general interest - good, well-tempered and well-said stuff.

My sons (13, 16) both cave and are thinly built; the younger lad climbs and does gymnastics too and is skinny but strong as a result. They attend American Boy Scout camp every second year, the medical forms for which give maximum acceptable weight limits for each height that are eye-opening: 5'0" - 166 lbs;  5'6" - 201 lbs;  6'0" - 239 lbs. My younger lad was actually below the recommended weight range for his height! Just imagine taking caving groups with those sort of weight to height ratios... 
 

NigelG

Member
I was interested to see what people think here because although not an Instructor with a capital "I", I have sometimes introduced people to my club, and sometimes to caving itself; and acted before the club created its web-site as an ex-officio contact via the county library service.

As well as the technical matters - where I prefer "use the methods and equipment you judge best and safest for the situation" to over-prescription - I wondered if anyone would mention the beginner's committment. Burt does, from experience in instructing kayaking. Christine hints at it I think.

I found many enquirers lacked even the committment to take up my invitation to ring me to arrange a trip, even though I'd taken time to and effort to answer carefully all their questions in their original letter (pre-wwww). I could never think why. Had I done something wrong? I believe now that such people may be the harder to deal with if they do turn up, because I think that they expect full, "instant" gratification, preferably from others' efforts. I've seen similar elsewhere so it's not confined to caving.

Christine's pre-trip questionnnaires may help to minimise having to struggle with obese or excessively unfit beginners by putting the onus on them to decide if such a pursuit is right for them; or if they think improving their fitness first would be adviseable. It may also encourage the more committed while discouraging the dilettantes who want all the onus to be on the leader.

Even more importantly it may weed out the minority who ignore advice or instruction even when obviously needing it. I've not personally encountered this but I know of one woman who has recently been refused membership of at least two major clubs through risking endangering herself and her team-mates by her attitude. 

Obviously most of those who try caving once or twice decide it's not their thing and take up Synchronised Crochet or something instead, but I find it rather sad and a bit offensive when people proudly tell me, "Oh, I've been caving" then it becomes clear that they think Caving is summed up by their few basic trips. If they said they'd tried but didn't like it then, fine: at least that's honest.

Many people now do want and expect others to think for them, be responsible for them; yet want and expect instant, full results or answers with no skill or effort on their part, in many walks of life. Do you caving instructors find many of your clients are like this? 

On slowing down the "tigers", I'd suggest flattering them by asking them to "help" - before handing them the rope bag or whatever! 

BTW whatever happened to the waist-length, that de-rigeur caving accessory of the '70s? A sewn tape sling, it was always handy for giving someone a bit of security and a hand up a tricky little climb or smooth slope.
 
Top