Trainers' advice

[chriscastle46]

I have heard, secondhand, that some CICs who are LCLMA assessors are saying that devices such as Tiblocks, Stops and jammers should not be used by Level 1 qualified leaders for hauling or protection as they are only for Level 2. This seems to be so ridiculous that it is hard to credit, and most certainly is not the view around Mendip. Does anyone else know about this and what do Forum members think?

Chris

 

[Les W]

Hi Chris,
I don't know the answer to your question but my understanding is that Level 1 caves don't have pitches so why would you need to haul or protect?  :-\

I'm pretty sure somebody will be along soon with the definitive answers though. 

 

[Stu]

Syllabus - training - remit. What's in them?

 

[Pete K]

I have heard, secondhand, that some CICs who are LCLMA assessors are saying that devices such as Tiblocks, Stops and jammers should not be used by Level 1 qualified leaders for hauling or protection as they are only for Level 2. This seems to be so ridiculous that it is hard to credit, and most certainly is not the view around Mendip. Does anyone else know about this and what do Forum members think?

Chris

Would you give an example of a situation where one of those items is required when an Italian Hitch belay or hand-line would not be practical?
There is certainly nothing within the remit of Level 1 that requires the use of anything beyond rope, krabs and belts.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

The LCMLA syllabus is not  prescriptive about this things, and rightly so, but this does have the negative effect that opinions amongst trainers and assessors can be divided. 

Let's consider the question of using a traxion at level one.  A couple of years ago I would have said no, it's not necessary or desirable, but that's not my view anymore, and this is why.

Novices are getting bigger, and instructors are getting smaller!  It's becoming more common to have overweight and physically inept kids, while many of the trainee instrutors I meet on LCMLA courses are petite girls. 

What has changed on my courses is the emphasis I now put on the health and safety of the instructor.  There is no other activity that is so physically demanding upon an instructor as caving.  Mendip caves like Goatchurch, with their steep gradient, demand a lot physical strength and when this lacking in the novice, it must be supplied by the instructor.  I know one female instructor who was unable to work for several months after she sustained injury helping an obese caver exit the cave.

In the light of these considerations I now encourage instructors to use whatever systems they deem necessary to reduce their risk of injury.  For the exit from the Tradesman's Entrance of Goatchurch I recommend a bottom operated 2:1 hoist incorporating a traxion.  This allows the group members below to do the hoisting while the instructor climbs below the novice, keeps them upright, and plants their feet on the footholds.

It is clearly the responsibility of the leader to familiarise themselves with any item of equipment they choose to use.  That item may or may not be in the 'normal' remit for level 1 but so what?  We are talking about a steep calcite slope in a dry cave, not bodies suspended under waterfalls in a void.  If we can trust these people to look after other people's children underground we should also trust them to learn to use whatever item of kit they choose to use. 

 

[Stu]

Andy, fair points all. You've included that process in your training, which is the point to some extent isn't it? If you've been trained in it - all good. If not - perhaps all bad if things go wrong. If you haven't go out and get extra training in it. 

 

[Smiley Alan]

I know one female instructor who was unable to work for several months after she sustained injury helping an obese caver exit the cave.

should'nt  the obsese person have been  stopped from going in by  the center ?

if not  then shoud'nt the center have provided  more staff  becuase they would be getting the  duty of care to the instructor wrong by a county mile surely ?  If I was tje instructor i might try to get money from  the center for losss of wages

 

[cap n chris]

It is perhaps a moot point whether the innate ability of a participant should determine their inclusion, or not; certainly it is a truth, widely accepted, that unfit obese people are not ideally suited to most cave environments.

Failing to weed out the epic-makers might either be a purposive oversight or policy glitch in need of review.

 

[Roger W]

In this case, it seems the instructor was the unlicky (?) one who suffered injury.

Supposing the obese participant had been injured as well in the incident?  Who would carry the can there?

 

[chriscastle46]

Centres will not stop obese candidates from caving, they have to be "included". It's an increasing problem, as is finding you have special needs kids that you havn't been told about. This may not cause trouble but as "special needs" can mean anything  you can be in the situation of refusing to take them and hope that the Centre or your manager backs you up. The use of a few bits of hardware, as Andy describes, is very useful and I cannot see why anyone would object to a competent person using them. If a leader has been trained by Andy there's no problem, but I fail to understand why other trainers are against teaching the use of these simple devices - if indeed that is the case.

 

[bograt]

Surely it is part of the leaders remit to choose the cave to fit the group, if there is any doubt about a novices ability in a particular situation, avoid putting them in that situation and choose an easier cave.
Re; the equipment debate, although not required for qualification, there is no reason why they should not be taken as an emergency backup providing the leader is familiar with there use, surely this is the choice of that leader.

 

[cap n chris]

The use of a few bits of hardware, as Andy describes, is very useful and I cannot see why anyone would object to a competent person using them.

Fully agree. If you've got a higher skill set I presently can't see any compelling reason why you should be barred from deploying techniques in a lower graded cave, if circumstances dictate.

 

[Burt]

Most of the LCMLA folk on Mendip will have had experience of a fat person in exactly the situation Andy has described above, and it is indeed becoming an increasing problem*.
As instructors it it our job to include people  - we're getting paid for it after all - and if this means taking them just to look at the cave entrance, then they go back to the minibus, then so be it. TBH it doesn't worry me; I'd rather escort a fatty in the easier sections of Goaters, then they go back to the bus and the rest of us continue as able bodied.

However, if joe lard can't make it up the exit slope, then I'd be happy for a level 1 to use any mechanical device they need to make that exit safe and swift. In reality this would be a last resort; the simplest way is always the best so lots of shoving, prodding or an assisted handline usually works without resorting to cattle prods or other devices.
And I totally agree with Andy - protecting the instructor is an equally high priority as well as the clients.

*Kayaking - When I started in this outdoors game back in 1995, everyone could fit in a standard dancer type kayak. Now, we probably turn away 1-5% of people because they can't fit in. We're now faced with using those dreadful sit-on-tops instead of proper boats which require effort and a bit of skill and commitment, also something which seems to have disappeared.

 

[chriscastle46]

It's refreshing to see that this posting has a thread of 15 replies without yet descending into a load of bollocks.
I'd like to hear from any trainers who disagree with the consensus here, and why.

 

[cap n chris]

As instructors it it our job to include people

Not entirely how I see things; as instructors it is our job to take capable people caving and to exercise our professional judgement regarding which parts of the cave we take them to - tailoring the experience to suit the group, is another way of putting it. If we judge that someone is incapable of it then perhaps that's sufficient argument for the person to be excluded on safety grounds, rather than taken into a situation where they jeopardise themselves, the instructor and the enjoyment/experience of all other participants.

I wonder how many "incidents/mini-epics" etc. are entirely due to this "inclusivity" approach. Perhaps outdoor pursuits would have a perfect record if it was more picky and discerning. Just a couple of pence.

I'd consider it part of the professional remit to make a value judgment on who to exclude. You wouldn't take someone in an iron lung because they wouldn't get through; when someone's so immense they can barely support their own bodyweight I think they shouldn't be led into a cave.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Just how fat DID you used to be, Chris?  :-\

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=95.msg547#msg547

Tis a problem, being a keen lard-eater and bit of a Johnny Pies. Mind you, console yourself with the following - who rescues the stickpeople when they get wedged?... at least if you're planetsize there's always going to be someone twiggy who can get to you.

Remember that a cave, by definition, is an underground void large enough to allow the passage of a person... so if you can't fit in it yourself, then it's not a cave as far as you're concerned... it's just a narrow fissure.

:mrgreen:

 

[cap n chris]

Not morbidly obese, Peter; still able to fit through Drainpipe etc. but cold logic dictated certain things required of a professional caver namely: a) get fit b) lose weight c) get fitter.

All was easily achieved and to date remains the case. Four and a half stones in four months.  Anyone serious about their caving would be similarly well advised, as I was.

 

[graham]

I wonder how many "incidents/mini-epics" etc. are entirely due to this "inclusivity" approach. Perhaps outdoor pursuits would have a perfect record if it was more picky and discerning. Just a couple of pence.

Not a professional situation, but similar. Many years ago we had a novice member who was keen, but for a number of reasons a complete liability. A club trip had been organised that was well beyond his capabilities, but he had expressed an interest and the leader had accepted him. Before the trip, this situation became known to other senior members of the club and the following conversation (more or less) took plave:

Leader: But I can't exclude someone from a club trip.

Elder person: Not only can you exclude him, but it is your duty to the rest of the party to do so.

I do have a problem with this 'inclusivity' think, 'cos if the leader is having to spend a disproportionate amount of time with one person then he cannot be adequately monitoring the rest of his/her charges. This is, though, somewhat easier to deal with in a club context where a wider variety of trips will often be available at any given time.

 

[r_walklate@hotmail.com]

What's the point of having a progressive qualification system if there is nothing to distinguish between them?

You can't get on a roller coaster if your to big or many other things for that matter. For me there has to be clear restrictions if you start increasing the size of individuals you take or group sizes or generally water down what you do when does it stop?

 

[christine]

My 2p (bearing in mind I have a full time profession in the ambulance service and only lead when I can/want to - thus I'm in a different position to many leaders/instructors whose groups are their bread and butter..)

When I take a booking I send a booking form in the shape of a very easily fill in-able PDF. Tick boxes, drop downs etc.
I ask basic but valid questions about the individuals levels of general fitness - examples are:
* (score 1-5 - 1 being extremely difficult, 5 being very easy) How do you find doing 10 press ups?
* How to you find walking up a steep hill for 5 minutes?

I also ask about general fitness in terms of lifestyle, such as: 'Is your job sedentary, mildly physical, extremely physical' etc and likewise leisure time.
Coupled with their sizes which I need for kit hire, I will soon be able to pick out individuals who may not be suited to the rest of the group or even the intended trip itself.
Fortunately, I've never had anyone who couldn't complete the intended trip. I never make anyone do anything they aren't comfortable with (they are not made to feel inadequate etc for not attempting the drainpipe if they don't want to, for example).

I've only had one individual who couldn't manage the second part of the day (Swildons Hole Upper series) but the good thing was, they didn't feel bad or stupid about sitting out the afternoon. It was they who asked of it was OK to give it a miss and I was in total agreement and would have suggested it if they hadn't.
The others on the trip were a bit fitter but there are ways you can make a trip tougher for the better cavers to challenge them more when you have a weaker caver in the group.
It is not against the law to give them the bag to carry, for example - or give them a job to do - which will slow them a little. The trip should always run to the weaker caver, but there are ways of balancing the group out - you just have to think outside the box.

One thing I always do (and I'm lucky that I have the time to do this - many outdoor centres just don't) is make time to find out a little about my group beforehand and again when I meet them.
They get a little talk about caves, geology and stuff like that and they get the chance to air any concerns they have etc.
I usually have my lunch with them and listen to what they say and their mood, so I know what to expect in the afternoon when they are maybe a little tired.
This week I saw several mini busses at a cave in Wales where 3 very large ladies only managed to get to the entrance of the cave, only to struggle getting back up the hill - and that was the end of their trip. A real shame and I hope they get another chance to have a trip of their own, at their pace, taylored to them so they don't go away with bad things to say.
Everyone is capable of 'something' - but I agree with many posts here that some people just aren't designed to do some trips. This should be picked up way before they actually turn up, ideally.