paul said:
Firstly, I ought to say that I always keep my stop either locked off or I keep a firm hold on the tail rope ... and I don't use "soft locks" because I don't trust them. Secondly, Paul has made an excellent point here about fall factors above rebelays, which is something I don't think has generally been properly thought through - yes if the rope fails, it will be backed up and therefore, nobody is going to plummet BUT their bodies may well have already suffered a lethal dose of shock loading. However, that's slightly off-topic. Thanks for reminding us, though, Paul.
In the situation Francis and I describe, though (ie an unlocked stop 20cms above a rebelay loop) then the worst that's going to happen is the rope will start to slip and I don't think there's any way this will become anything approaching a free-fall in 20cms or so. So, although I appreciate what you're saying, I stand by the fact that I don't think there's much danger in having the stop unlocked a few cms above a rebelay.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Nice floorboards.
A conventional hard-lock (through the attachment and over the top of the Stop) does maybe work better on top of a soft lock and if using a braking crab, since the natural release action of removing the hard and then soft-locks tends to place the caver in the maximum friction position (right hand high).
The conventional hard-lock also doesn't require the left hand to be moved from the handle, and so allows for the left hand to stay in the stationary-maximum-friction position (around the Stop under the handle with the back of the hand levering the handle outwards). That grip keeps the fingers free for either retaining the rope tail from a soft-lock, or for gripping the rope coming down the side of the Stop from the top. On really slippy rope, the max-friction grip can be useful, since it can often help hold position even before any kind of lock is put on, or while locks are being removed, or while the right hand is briefly engaged elsewhere. It has the definite advantage that gripping harder just makes it more effective.
The conventional hard-lock also doesn't require the left hand to be moved from the handle, and so allows for the left hand to stay in the stationary-maximum-friction position (around the Stop under the handle with the back of the hand levering the handle outwards). That grip keeps the fingers free for either retaining the rope tail from a soft-lock, or for gripping the rope coming down the side of the Stop from the top. On really slippy rope, the max-friction grip can be useful, since it can often help hold position even before any kind of lock is put on, or while locks are being removed, or while the right hand is briefly engaged elsewhere. It has the definite advantage that gripping harder just makes it more effective.
francis
New member
I took these pictures for the Norwegian forum a while ago. This is how I lock off.
I realised after I had taken the pictures that I normally pull the loop over the other side of the Stop (last picture), but I doubt it makes much of a difference appart from the fact that taking it over from behind is less hassle.
Francis
I realised after I had taken the pictures that I normally pull the loop over the other side of the Stop (last picture), but I doubt it makes much of a difference appart from the fact that taking it over from behind is less hassle.
Francis
cap n chris
Well-known member
Is this overly complex, too?
cap n chris
Well-known member
It's all gone a bit Pete Tong/OT, innit?
W
Walrus
Guest
I already use a lock-off like the one Francis suggests as a 'hard lock'. As for my original question I'll try it with a krab for a while and if I prefer it I'll consider getting a nut/bolt to keep it like that. But I don't want to get rid of the Stop completely as (many people have pointed out) it can be useful for other stuff too.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Surely you have your karabiner at 180 degrees to that shown, such that the collar screws up downwards, though?
Cave_Troll
Active member
the collar on the screw gate does not even seem to be done up.
basic safety point this
basic safety point this
paul
Moderator
docfunk said:
It's so complicated that it's the way that the manufacturer recommends to lock off securely... See the pamphlet which comes with the Stop on purchase or if you haven't got one, see the online version at Petzl's website. They don't show the additional soft-lock when using a braking krab in use but you can refer to Francis's photo to see that.
It always amazes me when people buy a piece of kit with clear instructions on usage and they come up with many other suggestions which are nearly always inferior.
