anfieldman
New member
paul said:
Sorry Paul but those pictures show a combination of a quick lock-off (3C) & a secure lock-off (3D) so it is a tad over complicated. I don't mean to be rude but look again.
Sorry Paul but those pictures show a combination of a quick lock-off (3C) & a secure lock-off (3D) so it is a tad over complicated. I don't mean to be rude but look again.
anfieldman
New member
Sorry, I cannot modify my last post for some reason but I wanted to add that IMO I would use one lock off or the other. What is the point in having a combination of the two if the secure lock off in picture 3D is sufficient?? Perhaps someone can enlighten me?
Personally I put both the soft/quick and hard/secure locks on my stop. The reason: I'm relatively new to SRT and I found that with just a hard lock on when I came to test my stop at pitch heads & rebelays that the slack bit of rope that forms the hard lock was sufficient to allow the stop to slip down a little when released on newer ropes. This obviously makes the testing trickier because it increases the chances that I'm then hanging from one of my cowstails.
Maybe there's some dextrous way of removing the hard lock that prevents this, but I found it easier to just put both locks on because the soft lock holds the slack rope while you remove the hard lock, and there's no slack introduced into the stop while you remove the soft lock. I don't find it takes a significant amount of time to do both locks and it seems worth it from a safety and convenience point of view.
Maybe there's some dextrous way of removing the hard lock that prevents this, but I found it easier to just put both locks on because the soft lock holds the slack rope while you remove the hard lock, and there's no slack introduced into the stop while you remove the soft lock. I don't find it takes a significant amount of time to do both locks and it seems worth it from a safety and convenience point of view.
anfieldman said:
I would suggest that Francis does it as shown because using a braking krab (or Raumber Handy), if you only use a standard hard lock, and necessarily, therefore, bypass the braking krab when locking off, the braking krab doesn't immediately come into play when unlocking again. On thin, new ropes, or in a rescue situation with extra weight, this could be very dangerous indeed. For the sake of one extra flick of the wrist, I would always suggest .. and always teach people ... to do both a "soft" and a "hard" lock as shown by Francis.
As an aside, I like your neat-looking lock, though, docfunk. I think it is tricky to do with one hand, though, isn't it?
anfieldman
New member
I consider myself enlightened. Thats makes sense. :bow:
mak
Member
I was meaning whilst at work..docfunk said:
And as for no knot, I carry 500 metres of rope and it allways seems to touch the bottom,hence no knot :tease:
[/quote]
Well I know of at least one well known caver on a trip to ireland many years ago who despite seeing about 20m of rope coiled up on the floor below a pitch decided to haul it back up and re-tie the end knot 'cos it wasn't tied properly
SamT
Moderator
may i refer you to the cautionary tale in Beneath the Mountains......
He paused for the first time at the top of Camshaft. It had been one of the trickier rigs in the cave, for there was a rub pointy a short way down which had proved curiously difficult to avoid with rebelays. A few days before, a party found the rope cut to the core, and sensibly they cut it, leaving only just enough for the descent. They arranged a more gymnastic way of getting on the rope which required a shorter length.
Despite the fact that Ian was on a de-rigging trip, he found himself unable to avoid re-rigging this pitch again. He knew that the take-off in this case would be so much simpler and less strenuous if there was an extra back-up from the boulder by the stream, and if the main hang were achieved via a triple belay...he pulled up the rope required and made his adjustments. What he didn't do was to check it there was a knot on the end of the rope. All the ropes on the expedition had knots in the end, even, as was usually the case, if the rope was much longer than required. There was still a knot in the end of the spare rope coiled on the floor. It is tempting to speculate whether a companion would have pointed out to Ian that he should check the rope's end, but Ian didn't have a companion.
What Ian did was to use about fifteen feet of extra rope in his re-rig, so that when he slid down the rope he sailed off the free end and flew bum-first into a serendipitous deep pool of water. It was about nine o'clock in the morning. Back at the camp, above all the pitches, squeezes and across the fell, the other cavers lay dozing in their bags. Not one had started to stir.
Neck-deep in his pool, Ian was far from asleep. His plight was straight out of a caving pub-yarn; at once desperately serious and totally absurd. The rope dangled enticingly above him way out of reach. There were no walls anywhere near to it, nor any movable rocks he could use to build a cairn and get to it. When he recovered from the shock he had a go at climbing up in the downstream passage, where he could bridge with one foot on either wall until he was way, way above the floor, perhaps half the height of the pitch. It wasn't possible to get any higher, and he could see the rope dangling only metres away out of reach. Did it occur to him to leap into space and grab for the rope, or did he accept his fate at once? Whichever, he was marooned.
I;ll let you read the rest to find out his fate - http://www.oucc.org.uk/btm/beneath.htm
lest to say no matter how long your rope - ALWAYS BLOODY WELL PUT A KNOT IN THE END.
He paused for the first time at the top of Camshaft. It had been one of the trickier rigs in the cave, for there was a rub pointy a short way down which had proved curiously difficult to avoid with rebelays. A few days before, a party found the rope cut to the core, and sensibly they cut it, leaving only just enough for the descent. They arranged a more gymnastic way of getting on the rope which required a shorter length.
Despite the fact that Ian was on a de-rigging trip, he found himself unable to avoid re-rigging this pitch again. He knew that the take-off in this case would be so much simpler and less strenuous if there was an extra back-up from the boulder by the stream, and if the main hang were achieved via a triple belay...he pulled up the rope required and made his adjustments. What he didn't do was to check it there was a knot on the end of the rope. All the ropes on the expedition had knots in the end, even, as was usually the case, if the rope was much longer than required. There was still a knot in the end of the spare rope coiled on the floor. It is tempting to speculate whether a companion would have pointed out to Ian that he should check the rope's end, but Ian didn't have a companion.
What Ian did was to use about fifteen feet of extra rope in his re-rig, so that when he slid down the rope he sailed off the free end and flew bum-first into a serendipitous deep pool of water. It was about nine o'clock in the morning. Back at the camp, above all the pitches, squeezes and across the fell, the other cavers lay dozing in their bags. Not one had started to stir.
Neck-deep in his pool, Ian was far from asleep. His plight was straight out of a caving pub-yarn; at once desperately serious and totally absurd. The rope dangled enticingly above him way out of reach. There were no walls anywhere near to it, nor any movable rocks he could use to build a cairn and get to it. When he recovered from the shock he had a go at climbing up in the downstream passage, where he could bridge with one foot on either wall until he was way, way above the floor, perhaps half the height of the pitch. It wasn't possible to get any higher, and he could see the rope dangling only metres away out of reach. Did it occur to him to leap into space and grab for the rope, or did he accept his fate at once? Whichever, he was marooned.
I;ll let you read the rest to find out his fate - http://www.oucc.org.uk/btm/beneath.htm
lest to say no matter how long your rope - ALWAYS BLOODY WELL PUT A KNOT IN THE END.
SamT said:
Hear, hear.
I was asked once to accompany someone on a trip so I could offer them some advice on their rigging and how to improve. Except for a few things which I would have done slightly differently, their rigging was really good and I was pleased to tell them as much. However, there was one thing above all else which I felt would one day lead to an accident ... and it was nothing to do with their rigging - at the bottom of every pitch, they promptly undid the knot in the end of the rope. When I talked to them about this, they didn't really know why they undid the knot. The only thing I can think of is that they once watched someone using hangers and maillons pre-threaded on the rope remove the spares at the bottom of the pitch by untying the knot and sliding them off. From then on they always undid the knot without thinking.
Cave_Troll
Active member
knots have litterally saved my life down Knotlow.
paul
Moderator
Another reason for having a knot in the end is: if the sheath were to be cut for some reason and then slid down the rope while you were beneath the damage, it is possible for the sheath to slide right off (although this is more likely on looser-sheathed dynamic rope). A knot will cause the sheath to gather at the bottom of thr rope without completely sliding off.
M
MSD
Guest
paul said:
I agree with this, plus only using a hard lock sometimes results in a jam caused by the rope getting pinched.
Mark
mak
Member
Yes you do know him - but I'll not name names (has been known for his use of cowstails - if that helps)Les W said:mak said:Well I know of at least one well known caver on a trip to ireland many years ago who despite seeing about 20m of rope coiled up on the floor below a pitch decided to haul it back up and re-tie the end knot 'cos it wasn't tied properly
Do I know him / her ?
Les W
Active member
Yes I guessed as much.mak said:Yes you do know him - but I'll not name names (has been known for his use of cowstails - if that helps)Les W said:mak said:Well I know of at least one well known caver on a trip to ireland many years ago who despite seeing about 20m of rope coiled up on the floor below a pitch decided to haul it back up and re-tie the end knot 'cos it wasn't tied properly
Do I know him / her ?
B
BCMCXIV
Guest
hoehlenforscher said:
Speaking as someone who's been caving for five years and is still s**t scared about abseiling, that sounds like a really neat suggestion. Does the shunt just follow you down the pitch automatically when under slight tension, or does it jam from time to time (I've only ever used one for self-belaying on ladders)? A friend of mine has been using a bobbin for about a year now and swears by it. I quite fancy giving it a try but don't want to plummet to a nasty death...
