cap n chris
Well-known member
Can someone correct me if my understanding is wrong:
Using a Shunt in combination with a Simple means that one hand is operating the Shunt, allowing the rope to run free, while the other is holding the rope and allowing it to feed through the Simple in a controlled fashion, in conjunction with a braking karabiner (as advised by the manufacturer's instruction sheet) - which is going to require some fiddling about changing hands when locking/unlocking*. If something untowards happens to the operator and he/she lets go of the Simple a rapid descent, intercepted and halted by the Shunt should occur.
What, then, is the functional difference between a Shunt/Simple combo and a Petzl Stop?
* Frankly, using a Shunt in conjunction with a Simple seems, to me, to be a clusterf*ck.
Using a Shunt in combination with a Simple means that one hand is operating the Shunt, allowing the rope to run free, while the other is holding the rope and allowing it to feed through the Simple in a controlled fashion, in conjunction with a braking karabiner (as advised by the manufacturer's instruction sheet) - which is going to require some fiddling about changing hands when locking/unlocking*. If something untowards happens to the operator and he/she lets go of the Simple a rapid descent, intercepted and halted by the Shunt should occur.
What, then, is the functional difference between a Shunt/Simple combo and a Petzl Stop?
* Frankly, using a Shunt in conjunction with a Simple seems, to me, to be a clusterf*ck.
Bob Smith
Member
i agree totally with chris here, a shunt simple combination is pointless, why have two bits of kit doing the job of one when that piece of kit exists!? And the argument of putting a hard lock on a stop by using a bight through your attachment krab being tricky is frankly ridiculous and and a problem if you are a real numtyf*ck!
cap n chris
Well-known member
Bob Smith said:
:hug:
cap n chris
Well-known member
ian.p said:
Shunts do work on muddy rope; but you're right about an FP being a cheap workable option to back up a Simple - AND it could be used with the same hand that is feeding the rope. It would therefore seem to be a better rig than a Shunt/Simple combo IMO.
Bob Smith
Member
Almost a rant, but why not just practice with your equipment until you are confident with it, stops are great for most british SRT situations, racks are great for long descents, stich plates are fine for belaying, etc etc. Just spend time to learn how to use your kit b4 taking it underground. I'm sure this has been said b4, but felt i had to get it off my chest. there, i've finished (for now)
D
Dep
Guest
Absolutely.Bob Smith said:
It is not a problem with the method per se...Bob Smith said:
My introduction to ropes, knots and general rigging was not in a caving/climbing context but for rigging lifting and hauling devices when I was in the navy. There I was taught never ever to put your fingers into a situation where if the line suddenly pulled tight you wuld have your fingers trapped. Admittedly we were dealing with generally higher forces, greater probabilities of this happening and often steel cables rather than ropes but the principle remains the same and for me this is a deeply ingrained habit.
The locking method itself is fine - if done correctly - but watch people who have not sussed it out, or who have cords all over the place and note how often they trap things in there or get in a general tangle.
And then there is the amount of rope that has to be 'managed' when it is released, especially if the braking krab is woven in there too. Watch people take their right hands off the rope to re-grip it higher up - tut-tut!
The other problem for most people learning changeovers to descent is that their stop creeps while they are adding or removing a hard lock, throwing in a soft-lock half turn round the back of the stopsolves this so easily - and as it requires a mere flick of the wrist and takes a fraction of a second I would always advocate this and show it to new people as a simple solution to the problem.
I do make a point of showing people the 'standard' method at first; ie the bight through the mounting krab, twist and over the stop, once they have sussed this then it is up to them to weigh the pros and cons of alternative methods for themselves.
The hard-lock around the stop body is nicer IMHO, I was very impressed with docfunk's loop around the handle method, a simpler variation of what I do. The key part of this lock is the half-hitch round the stop body - I usually throw on two as I don't loop under the handle. I will give this a go though as it looks very simple.
When released the amount of rope released is less than the length of my arm - I have control of the rope at all times.
One final point: In my book the differene between a hard and soft lock (regardless of actual method) is that a hard-lock is absolute, you can release the rope and safely forget about your stop to concentrate on something else.
A soft-lock however is just a nip to stop creepage - the rope must still be held, ideally in your right hand.
AndyF
New member
SHunts are a mare at changeovers as you have to remove them without them being attached to rope giveg lots of scope for dropping them. They also cant be released under tension, so you have to "bounce " to release them.
I like them as a device, especially for pitch approach where you may go forward and back a few times while placing bolts, etc. Easier then with an ascender, but as an abseil safety device (their design purpose!) they suck
I like them as a device, especially for pitch approach where you may go forward and back a few times while placing bolts, etc. Easier then with an ascender, but as an abseil safety device (their design purpose!) they suck
As long as there's a significant weight of rope below, a soft-lock on a Stop is pretty much solid as long as the Stop remains loaded, even without hands holding the down-rope.
However, the situations where you're likely to want to stop on descent and have hands free are generally the kind of situations where you would want a hard lock anyway - either when you're going to swing/climb around when rigging (when there likely isn't much rope weight below, and the Stop might even get temporarily unloaded), or if descending rigged ropes, when you're pulling yourself in to tricky deviations or rebelays, (where the down-rope could well get slack and fall off).
Still, for right-handers, a soft-lock on its own does allow for easier temporary freeing of the right hand for some little manoeuvre, like passing a simple deviation, since even on a Simple, let alone a Stop, the left hand has only to keep the soft-lock in place, rather than actually putting any tension on the rope for friction.
However, the situations where you're likely to want to stop on descent and have hands free are generally the kind of situations where you would want a hard lock anyway - either when you're going to swing/climb around when rigging (when there likely isn't much rope weight below, and the Stop might even get temporarily unloaded), or if descending rigged ropes, when you're pulling yourself in to tricky deviations or rebelays, (where the down-rope could well get slack and fall off).
Still, for right-handers, a soft-lock on its own does allow for easier temporary freeing of the right hand for some little manoeuvre, like passing a simple deviation, since even on a Simple, let alone a Stop, the left hand has only to keep the soft-lock in place, rather than actually putting any tension on the rope for friction.
K
ken
Guest
[quote/]
I like them as a device, especially for pitch approach where you may go forward and back a few times while placing bolts, etc. Easier then with an ascender, but as an abseil safety device (their design purpose!) they suck
[/quote]
There designed to save your life. If you've ever been on a pitch where your stop doesn't hold (and untill you realize this you only have 1 or 2 seconds) you'll be hapy you have one.
I'll never do a 60 meter pitch without one again because my stop slipped the last 15 meters and freefalling is no fun!
I like them as a device, especially for pitch approach where you may go forward and back a few times while placing bolts, etc. Easier then with an ascender, but as an abseil safety device (their design purpose!) they suck
[/quote]
There designed to save your life. If you've ever been on a pitch where your stop doesn't hold (and untill you realize this you only have 1 or 2 seconds) you'll be hapy you have one.
I'll never do a 60 meter pitch without one again because my stop slipped the last 15 meters and freefalling is no fun!
cap n chris
Well-known member
ken said:
What was the scenario, Ken; how did this happen?
Known by None
Member
Reading that just fills me with paranoia!
Les W
Active member
Known by None said:
A Stop descender when used correctly is perfectly safe!
A Stop descender is not a beginners tool and should not be used to train novices to abseil (however with the auto lock disabled, it may suffice if there is nothing else :-\ )
There is NO substitute for good training and familiarity with your equipment.
A Stop descender is a VERY useful piece of equipment but it is also an advanced piece of equipment.
There is no reason to be paranoid, just get good training and get familiar with your kit.
Known by None
Member
Les W said:Known by None said:
A Stop descender when used correctly is perfectly safe!
A Stop descender is not a beginners tool and should not be used to train novices to abseil (however with the auto lock disabled, it may suffice if there is nothing else :-\ )
There is NO substitute for good training and familiarity with your equipment.
A Stop descender is a VERY useful piece of equipment but it is also an advanced piece of equipment.
There is no reason to be paranoid, just get good training and get familiar with your kit.
I like my Stop and once my car is fixed (hopefully before the weekend) I hope to use it in anger at any available oppurtunity I get, if I wasn't convinced you'd point/laugh and throw cricket balls at me on Saturday I might even practice some re-belays on the frame.
D
Dep
Guest
ken said:
I'm intrigued as to how on earth this happened.
Even if the stop will not fully stop due to wear or mud it can still be controlled holding the tail-rope - just like using a fig-8 or other abbing device.
Used correctly the 15m slippage described is not possible without a degree of incompetence or error on the part of the user.
What was your right hand doing at the time?
JB
Member
Les W said:
I've taught a number of people to abseil with Stops and haven't had a problem. There are certainly advantages and disadvantages to learning to abseil with different types of descender but I take issue with this "should not be used to train novices". I only say this as it might be appropriate for some people reading the forum and whoever's training them might be happy for them to use them.
Les W
Active member
JB said:
AFAIK most accidents with stops have been with novices! The stop is counter intuitive and without training (reinforcement) the tendency is to grab at the Stop when you are not sure - hence the nickname clutch and plummet.
Once you have learnt that the bast response is to let go of the Stop it becomes a very useful bit of kit, I wouldn't be without mine.
Novices should learn to abseil and control their descent with their right hand (right handed Stop) and not be distracted with an auto lock device, this lulls them into a false sense of security and they become careless. Once they have mastered the basic concept of abseiling ie. don't let go of the lower rope, ever! (unless locked off of course) then they can progress onto the Stop but first they nead to learn the discipline of using the rope to control descent, not the handle.
I have actually taught people to abseil with a stop as well :-[ but it was the only kit available at the time. It is much easier without the distraction of the autolock mechanism.
We've had this discussion on here many times before but for what it's worth ...
I agree completely with Les W but confess that until a few years ago I always taught beginners to use a Stop from the outset ... although, thinking about it, when at University I always taught people to belay before we got to SRT. And as part of belaying I used to make them lock off an Italian Hitch under load without any slippage at all - that teaches people to keep the tail end tight at all times and may well have helped, even if they hated me for it at the time!
I agree completely with Les W but confess that until a few years ago I always taught beginners to use a Stop from the outset ... although, thinking about it, when at University I always taught people to belay before we got to SRT. And as part of belaying I used to make them lock off an Italian Hitch under load without any slippage at all - that teaches people to keep the tail end tight at all times and may well have helped, even if they hated me for it at the time!
