Update on Twll Du

[Scrappycaver]

Yes Fulk, you are missing the point. The point being that some people think the cave should only have one entrance; that one being the one that they control. You're being naughty.

The original entrance is a great entrance, apart from when that water pours down your neck.

Is there no way we compromise on which entrance to use based on rescue and practability? Perhaps the civil engineered original route is out of touch and the most natural approach is needed like twll du?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[NewStuff]

I seem to remember that approach was offered, and nixed by the PDCMG, with other entrances. I reckon  those rebuffs probably led to this being sought out and dug in the first place. The PDCMG are known for a love affair with concrete, and bloody minded intransigence with regard to anything more than a single entrance, not reason and compromise.

 

[NigR]

I?m making this post in a genuine spirit of enquiry, and not to stir up yet more trouble.
When I first read about the tramway being damaged, I had visions of people ripping up an old err . . . tramway and, maybe, making off with the tracks for their scrap value. But I?ve just seen a picture of the tramway in the latest Descent, and it appears to be a pleasant green track, at the side of which there is a small pile of stones / gravel that appears to be on top of the new entrance. There are no obvious signs of damage in the picture, other than a bit of gravel spilt onto the tramway. Is the picture misleading in some way, or is the above a reasonable account of the situation? If so, then ? leaving aside any legal questions or questions of landowner wishes ? what is the problem with regard to ?damage? ? it looks as though the damage is so trivial that it could very easily be put right?

andrewmc says:

but I imagine the court would take an extremely dim view given the apparent lack of justification for using the entrance (to non-cavers at least).

That strikes me as odd; on the two occasions that I?ve been to the cave, we used the original entrance, which involved a lot of wriggling and squirming, much of it in pretty wet conditions, so we were wet through within minutes of entering the cave. According to one account of the new entrance ? I think it was written by David Rose ? the new entrance is easy, safe and dry. I would expect any non-caver to be perfectly capable of grasping that a ?safe easy dry? way in might be preferable to a wriggly, squirmy wet way in!

So am I missing the point(s) here?

Hi Fulk,

I have not seen the photograph in Descent but, other than the fact that there is of course a very small hole in the ground (currently covered by a metal grille), your description appears accurate. Any damage which might have occurred is indeed unfortunate but it is by no means catastrophic and could, in my opinion, be very easily rectified. Nobody is in any disagreement over the issue that something needs to be done and the entrance certainly needs to be stabilised in some way (just as many other cave entrances have been throughout the UK). It is a wonderful entry point into Ogof Draenen, essentially being a 25m shaft into a huge chamber, by far the best of the four entrances which have been made public to date. As you are from Yorkshire, you would love it!

However, as Ship-badger and Newstuff have pointed out, there are deeper underlying issues here (which have been bubbling ever since the cave was first discovered back in 1994) and these will not easily (if ever!) be resolved. This is a great shame and it is ordinary cavers who are now being forced to suffer, purely by other cavers denying them access to such a superb natural feature. Make no mistake, CADW are allowing themselves to be shamelessly manipulated here and I find this both incredibly surprising and bitterly disappointing.

(Just one last point to note: Twll Du is not as completely dry as you imagine due to a waterfall entering partway down. This not only makes the the final pitch into Draenen pretty damp in high water conditions but also helps add significantly to the character of the place.)

 

[Ian Adams]

..... due to a waterfall entering partway down.

It's not that bad 

You descend out of the water, you get hit with some "spray" as you land.

Lightweight NigR, you've never seen water have you?  :halo:

Ian

 

[braveduck]

This is amusing ,you do realise that there is a Welsh PC making a list of all you who have been down.

 

[Ship-badger]

This is amusing ,you do realise that there is a Welsh PC making a list of all you who have been down.

He may not be. I did email him and suggest that Gwent Police could use it's finite resources much more wisely than being "used" by one group of cavers to prevent another group of cavers doing something that the first group don't want them to do.

 

[NigR]

It will be a very long list!!

 

[Simon Wilson]

Is there any chance of asking for permission bearing in mind that the diggers didn't know where it would come out.

A couple of years ago when Earby Pothole Club got into trouble for digging on a SSSI without permission they applied retrospectively and got it.

 

[andrewmcleod]

andrewmc says:

but I imagine the court would take an extremely dim view given the apparent lack of justification for using the entrance (to non-cavers at least).

That strikes me as odd; on the two occasions that I?ve been to the cave, we used the original entrance, which involved a lot of wriggling and squirming, much of it in pretty wet conditions, so we were wet through within minutes of entering the cave. According to one account of the new entrance ? I think it was written by David Rose ? the new entrance is easy, safe and dry. I would expect any non-caver to be perfectly capable of grasping that a ?safe easy dry? way in might be preferable to a wriggly, squirmy wet way in!

I'm suggesting that while it might make sense to you and me that having another advantageous, I can imagine a court case where the following 'facts' are presented:

a) There is a perfectly good entrance with an agreed access policy, managed by a group of volunteer cavers with the agreement of the landlord (a non-caving magistrate will neither know nor likely care about the relative ease of the entrances).
b) A group of cavers have been trespassing without permission in the cave.
c) Those cavers have been digging without permission in the cave (potentially criminal damage, at a stretch).
d) These rebellious law-breakers have recklessly carried out works within a scheduled monument, causing damage and a loss of potential archaeology.
e) Despite clear warnings from the police and CADW, these irresponsible tykes have knowingly continued to trespass.

PS just to be absolutely clear this is NOT how I would view the situation, just suggesting it could very easily be presented that way and a court might decide to side with 'authority' (misbegotten or otherwise).

I still argue this entrance _as it stands_ is a losing battle; the only thing you will get out of fighting this will be to set both the Police and CADW on the side of the PDCMG and make everybody trying to get access look like an irresponsible bunch of law-ignoring rebels.

That's not to say that a managed, negotiated settlement can't be reached that _might_, given *patience* and time (and a lot of bum licking) get CADW etc back on side. But it probably needs to be done softly and through careful channels. This is what the BMC, being a much more top-down organization than the BCA, is good at.

 

[NigR]

A very negative posting, Andrew. Fortunately, I know many cavers in Wales who are made of far sterner stuff. Rest assured, losing battle or not, they will all be fighting this until the bitter end (and beyond, if need be).

Incidentally, nobody has "been trespassing without permission in the cave". Any cavers entering the cave via any of the ungated entrances situated on Open Access Land have merely been asserting their right under the CROW Act to do so. Please bear this in mind if inclined to make such sweeping statements in the future.

 

[Rhys]

In the unfortunate situation of an accident in draenen with three out of four entrances sealed will this not pose a threat for rescue with time being an important factor ?

No.

Sorry, Rhys but the extraction of an injured caver from, for example, Big Country is bound to take considerably longer than if Twll Du were to be used and how you can so emphatically say otherwise is completely beyond me. Are you totally unfamiliar with the character and layout of the cave?

The "Modifying a cave just in case there is a rescue" excuse has been used over and over in order to justify the actions of the people who can't stand not getting their own way. I'm not debating it again.

Did you dig this new entrance open to facilitate rescues?

There may be good reasons for keeping this hole or other holes open. I don't believe that unnecessarily making the cave safer or easier is one of them.

I think I'm with andrewmc here. You spectacularly messed up on this one. Accept it. Stop wasting your energies fighting this and go dig elsewhere!

Rhys

 

[NameOfTheDragon]

Apparently CADW are now keen to see the Nunnery and Drws entrances closed, as to get to these entrances requires cavers to walk on or across the tramroad, therefore causing further damage. I wonder who it was that brought the other two entrances into the conversation with CADW?
Is the tramroad that runs past Eglwys and Aggy a Scheduled Monument; if so we had better be careful.
I didn't think that my opinion of the PDCMG could sink any lower; but now it has. These vermin will stop at nothing to get their own way. They have nothing in common with the caving community that I have been a member of since the late '70s.

That is all very well, but PDCMG has to operate within the law and I wonder what you think PDCMG could have done differently? If you have a good faith suggestion then please do make it known.

As far as I am aware, Twll Du is currently the only entrance being actively investigated by Cadw, although Cadw doesn't answer to me or to PDCMG so it is possible that they could be looking further afield. PDCMG has not asked them to do so to the best of my knowledge, although it wouldn't be surprising if under the circumstances they were looking at the whole area a lot more carefully. You say "apparently" as if someone has told you this to be fact. Would you care to share why you think this?

 

[NameOfTheDragon]

The point is: as I read it, a Stop notice applies to work, and going into a cave does not constitute work. Therefore how could it be a criminal offence to do so? Had a Stop notice been issued while the cave was still being dug, and the diggers then continued, it would have been a different matter. But we are where we are, and I can't quite see how it would be a crime to enter Twll Du is a notice were issued - which, please correct me if I'm wrong, so far has not happened.

I emailed Sue Mabbett of the PDCMG drawing her attention to my question on this thread yesterday. So far she hasn't posted or replied. I hope she will. It does seem to me that whatever stance one takes on Draenen, Twll Du and cave access restrictions, bringing the threat of the criminal law into this is a serious matter, and requires precision.

I see that Sue has now replied to your enquiry by email and she has wisely referred you to Cadw and/or the police for further information. Interpreting the legalities of things such as Stop Notices is not really something that PDCMG is able to do. For anyone who would like further information on this, please contact:

Cadw: Dr. Amelia Pannett <Amelia.Pannett@gov.wales>
Gwent Police: Maldwyn John <Maldwyn.John@gwent.pnn.police.uk>

Please note: the stop notice was NOT requested by PDCMG. This was Cadw's decision as the statutory body responsible for registered monuments.

 

[NigR]

Did you dig this new entrance open to facilitate rescues?

You spectacularly messed up on this one. Accept it. Stop wasting your energies fighting this and go dig elsewhere!

Rhys

Interesting statements (accusations), Rhys.

Perhaps you might like to enlighten us all with the basis upon which they are made?

Or, even better, pass the evidence which you must most surely possess (otherwise, why would you say such things?) on to the policeman in charge of the investigation. I am certain he would be most interested to hear from you.

(Had you attended the PDCMG meeting on 15 October - or bothered to speak to anyone who had - you would know full well that I did NOT "dig this new entrance open" as you fallaciously claim. As I stated then, I unfortunately played no part in the discovery of Twll Du and only learned of its existence several months after the event. Believe me, had it been otherwise I would be more than prepared to accept whatever credit and/or brickbats might come my way: it is a magnificent piece of exploratory caving.)

 

[Rhys]

Interesting statements (accusations), Rhys.

Well, it started off as a question. Perhaps I wrongly assumed you were involved - perhaps getting others to do your dirty work. Forgive me, but you do seem to be neck-deep in this and have a lot to say about it. I guess you know who did dig it.

Rhys

 

[NigR]

No, Rhys - your initial question contained a clear implication and this was followed by a definitive statement, both of which were obviously designed to make people think it was me who had dug open the entrance. Please do not try to squirm your way out of what you said by pretending otherwise.

As for being "neck-deep in this" (yet another unfounded allegation?) I have descended Twll Du on an extremely limited number of occasions (twice to be precise) in the time since it has been open (well over a year). So, once again, please stop trying to insinuate differently.

I may well "have a lot to say about it" but this is purely because I feel strongly about what I can see taking place in front of me, not because of any direct involvement on my part. I believe I have every right to express my opinions and I will continue to do so, of that you can be certain.

 

[Rhys]

I believe I have every right to express my opinions and I will continue to do so, of that you can be certain.

Likewise.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Incidentally, nobody has "been trespassing without permission in the cave". Any cavers entering the cave via any of the ungated entrances situated on Open Access Land have merely been asserting their right under the CROW Act to do so. Please bear this in mind if inclined to make such sweeping statements in the future.

I am inclined to agree. DEFRA and NRW would disagree (once you are underground).

I don't think the diggers were necessarily doing anything outrageous, but they got unlucky and found an entrance in a location where they have (at least as far as CADW are concerned which is all that really matters) unintentionally damaged a scheduled monument. If it had been 50m away and outside the scheduled monument, that would be great - but it isn't.

What do people really hope to achieve by fighting this?
Do they really think they will convince CADW just to ignore damage to a scheduled monument by angrily ignoring STOP notices and continuing to enter the entrance in contempt of CADW and the police?

Do people really think anything will get resolved by continuing to fight every battle regardless of the chance of success, in ignorance of the collateral damage to efforts to improve access elsewhere?

Next time cavers have to all for permission to dig on an SSSI or scheduled monument, do people think CADW and related organizations are going to be quite as accommodating of caves as responsible, reasonable adults?

It is probably ironic that cavers on both sides of any argument are so bad at taking the high ground (very good at claiming they have it though!). Many seem pretty unable to take a wider view of the problem. If you want more open access to Draenen, but don't have some understanding and sympathy of the PDCMG's position, then you will never be a part of the solution.

 

[Ship-badger]

Nameofthedragon, yes, the PDCMG have to operate within the law. What could they have done differently? They could have done what I would have done, and what my friends would have done, which is to have said nothing. What would you have done? Would you have run to CADW to tell tales about cavers doing damage to a tramroad? Maybe you would.

I believe, but have no proof, that when members of the PDCMG concreted the Nunnery entrance they transported the equipment to the site by driving a vehicle along the very same tramroad. If this is true, and they have not rushed to deny it when I have previously asserted it, was this not outwith the law? The tramroad is a PROW, but not a Byway as far as I know.

Hopefully a member of the "concreting party" will be along here soon to deny that any vehicle was driven along the tramroad; in which case I will happily stand corrected. If that is the case, it was a very long way to carry all that gravel, and cement, and buckets, and scaffolding, etc, etc, etc.

 

[thomasr]

I have been following  all the  arguements [ best I could ] with a mixture of amusement and  bewilderment. So how many people in Wales would actually give a toss about a tramway on a godforsaken hillside and about  cavers for that matter ? Should not your energies be better spent opening up the hillside.? Never mind easy access for rescue. Why not instead go all out for a super system like in England with its multitude of entrances  provide sport and exploration for all  Attract overseas cavers and give Wales something to be proud of