Update on Twll Du

[Rhys]

Nameofthedragon, yes, the PDCMG have to operate within the law. What could they have done differently? They could have done what I would have done, and what my friends would have done, which is to have said nothing. What would you have done? Would you have run to CADW to tell tales about cavers doing damage to a tramroad? Maybe you would.

Come on Greg, you haven't really thought this through. Assume PDCMG ignored the hole, then a little while later Cadw or the landowners start to notice and see cavers using it. They ask PDCMG about it. What then? Do they lie and deny all knowlege? It's all over the internet. No one comes out of it with any credibility or dignity - you've just delayed the inevitable closure and damaged relationships further.

PS. It's nice to see you using your real name 😁

 

[Ship-badger]

It wouldn't be all over the internet if PDCMG hadn't got CADW involved. Who knew that this particular bit of crappy tramroad was a Scheduled Monument? Did you know that the crappy tramroad that runs past Eglyws and Aggy, complete with crappy stone sleeper blocks, is not a Scheduled Monument? I suspect that someone within the PDCMG jumped for joy when they knew it was Scheduled. They wouldn't have given a shit if it hadn't been; and they don't actually give a shit about the tramroad either way.

I don't really think it's a crappy tramroad; in fact I really like tramroads, but I try to keep it a secret.

 

[Graigwen]

In my opinion it is a beautiful tramroad, a wonderful historic relic and well deserving listing. However, trying to put Twll Du in perspective:

1  It was not very obvious. Since it was opened I must have walked past it as I went along the tramroad six times on my own and twice with Alkapton without noticing it. I gather that it is now more obvious, perhaps as a result of official investigations. (I have not been there since September.) It is strange that it was apparently not intersected when the tramway shelf was cut in the hillside - the normal solution would have been to bridge it with timber and allow it to grass over,

2 Some distance to the north west from the Tumble bridge much more significant damage has been done to the tramroad. The whole of the trackbed has fallen away and the resulting broken ground forms a barrier beyond which people with very limited mobility such as myself cannot pass. Natural elements seem to be causing slow continuing degradation.

.

 

[RobinGriffiths]

I would say that the fact that this incident has flushed out trustees onto the forum after several years of reticence suggests that they regard this incident as a bit of a coup, and that this gives them a very useful weapon to keep the multi entrance/pro CROW rabble on the back foot.

 

[Rhys]

It wouldn't be all over the internet if PDCMG hadn't got CADW involved. Who knew that this particular bit of crappy tramroad was a Scheduled Monument? Did you know that the crappy tramroad that runs past Eglyws and Aggy, complete with crappy stone sleeper blocks, is not a Scheduled Monument? I suspect that someone within the PDCMG jumped for joy when they knew it was Scheduled. They wouldn't have given a shit if it hadn't been; and they don't actually give a shit about the tramroad either way.

I don't really think it's a crappy tramroad; in fact I really like tramroads, but I try to keep it a secret.

It was all over the internet before Cadw got involved. David Rose wrote an article for BCA and Stuart France one for Cambrian CC. Before that there were public posts on Facebook and other places giving big hints and clues to those who know the area. More posts and clues would've followed until someone posted the actual location, I'm sure. Rightly so - secret access to the select few is as bad as no access, if you ask me. It can only work for a limited time and for a limited pool of people while discoveries are being made.

I rather suspect that most of PDCMG groaned and put their heads in their hands rather than jumped for joy when they discovered that the location of the new entrance was within the bounds of a protected monument. Whether they give a shit about tramroads or not, they can't ignore it. Who decides which laws to obey and which to ignore? You? It's just another sorry chapter in a long sorry tale.

Rhys

 

[RobinGriffiths]

As a bit of an aside.

Are those shakeholes at SO 2553 1120 and SO 2557 1127 ? Almost on the margin where the Twrch sandstone sits on the Llanelly Formation. Anything of any interest there?

 

[Ship-badger]

We all make decisions about which laws to obey and which to ignore every day.
I obey the speed limit past schools during school hours and term time, and I sometimes ignore them at other times.
I would not report a man stealing one Christmas tree from a plantation; but I would report a group of men stealing a truck load.
So the answer, I suppose, to Rhys's question is "yes", it is me who decides.

Still no response from PDCMG regarding driving along the tramroad.

 

[BradW]

Regardless of which laws Greg Jones thinks it's OK to break, there is no moral high ground in complaining when someone reports you for breaking them.

 

[Ship-badger]

Did I say there was?

BradW gets this weeks prize for stating the blindingly obvious.

I think I know what the W stands for.

 

[BradW]

Did I say there was?

No you didn't. Neither did I suggest you were. Others are happy to do so. Try reading things at face value please.

 

[PeteHall]

[gmod]Can we please try to stick to the topic and avoid the petty bickering [/gmod]

 

[Lloydy]

Can we please try to stick to the topic and avoid the petty bickering

I think the big loser in the end will be Ogof draenen. The single entrance policy will lead to another entrance away from Pwll ddu, more likely the Southeast of the system, War of the worlds or Dollimore Series. The impact on these areas will be immense. Imagine an entrance in luck of the draw beyond Medusa,s children. This fragile area is already showing signs of damage.

 

[droid]

Are you implying that increased access might increase damage?

We were assured by *some* proCRoWers that that didn't happen......

 

[Rhys]

I think the big loser in the end will be Ogof draenen. The single entrance policy will lead to another entrance away from Pwll ddu, more likely the Southeast of the system, War of the worlds or Dollimore Series. The impact on these areas will be immense. Imagine an entrance in luck of the draw beyond Medusa,s children. This fragile area is already showing signs of damage.

You could have 20 entrances opened up in the Pwll Du area and there will still be people wanting to open more entrances directly in to Dollimores or War of the Worlds.

 

[Rhys]

I'm just copying this across from another thread as it is relevant here:

What we're seeing at the new Twll Du entrance to Ogof Draenen is a worrying development which I think is potentially damaging to the hopes of CROW ever being recognised for caving. Some cavers have been asserting on the forum that this new hole, which was covertly dug without permission, now has a right of access attached to it thanks to CROW. Surely this couldn't be what the law was intended for? Effectively, it means that you can dig anywhere you please on CROW land without permission and once the hole is open, the landowner can do nothing about it. There seems to be a legal absurdity here. We've all been told that CROW doesn't give a right to dig, but in practice that seems to be the outcome here.

I suggest the law will not allow it.  There is a fundamental principle in law that one should not 'gain' from an illegal act.  Although the oft quoted examples apply to those directly involved, I am confident that a court will throw out any claim that an entrance opened by a breach of the CRoW Act should remain open for others to use.  (I presume that in the Twll Du case, the scheduled monument status is considered a more signficiant potential breach.)

 

[Joel Corrigan]

My concern is a purely practical one: the entrance is currently an accident waiting to happen so I'd suggest that the diggers make some basic improvements before the shit really hits the fan.  It may have changed by now but when I went down a couple of weeks ago my first impression was that the lid is a farce (barely covers the hole) & a curious animal or even a child could fall down the shaft without too much effort.  My second thought was that the in-situ handline just below the lid is very visible & I can imagine an adventurous non-caver being tempted to see what's down there.  The last thing either side want is for the public to get involved in the most absurd & long-running bitch-fest of all time as it doesn't take a genius to realise that we'll all lose out.  Whilst the various bodies argue I feel that whoever opened this up might want to get dressed up as ramblers & install a more heavy-duty lid & de-rig the first couple of metres of rope.  I'm not really too fussed about Draenen (a friend of mine used to call it "Ogof Boring") so this isn't a political stab but accident prevention is far easier than dealing with the potential aftermath. 

In order to redress the balance & so that the diggers don't think I'm picking on them I shall ask a question: is the main/traditional way into the cave being maintained?  Has the scaffold been replaced since the early nineties?  I've been involved in a few boulder choke collapses in my time & am probably warier than most & the shoring in the entrance series didn't inspire confidence the last few times I was there.  If the answer is "no, they're not being maintained" then I'd suggest that making sure the "approved" entrance is safe should be a priority before attempting to seal the others. 

 

[PeteHall]

My concern is a purely practical one: the entrance is currently an accident waiting to happen..

I think we need to get a bit of perspective here.

Have you ever been to Yorkshire?

I don't see anyone trying to put a lid on Gaping Gill!

 

[BradW]

Has someone left GG permanently rigged with a bit of rigid aluminium ladder and a handline, both visible and easily reached from the surface?

 

[Jopo]

A fairly sensible comment by Joel in light of the current situation.

My concern is a purely practical one: the entrance is currently an accident waiting to happen..

I think we need to get a bit of perspective here.

Have you ever been to Yorkshire?

I don't see anyone trying to put a lid on Gaping Gill!

A rather crass and totally unhelpful comment from a 'global moderator' no less.

Who chooses the moderators?

Jopo

 

[alastairgott]

Perspective is not the same as comparison.

Getting things into perspective would be saying that the NT is probably a lot like CADW. Therefore we should look at things happening on their land if we wish to draw perspective into this Monkey fest.

NT have shut down the Odin Mine hillside as there is an entrance where the Ginging is collapsing. They are extremely proactive with this, and have put up barriers which are a lot like the ones found around Festivals.

If you keep trying to "put things into Perspective" rather than getting off your arses to sort it, then you will end up in a far worse position, They may just decide that the crow/Blorenge sssi area warrants further protection and shut it down.

Planet of the apes.