Update on Twll Du

[NigR]

Regarding Joel's concerns:

There is now a second, wider grille, attached to the lower "lid" and this does cover the peripheries of the hole somewhat better than previously. I do not know when it was placed there, or by whom, but it is a welcome addition. Obviously, in the longer term, it is vital that a much better means of safeguarding the site should be installed and (as I have previously stated) there is absolutely no disagreement whatsoever about this (the current differences of opinion revolve purely around whether there should be access for cavers afterwards).

The "in-situ handline" just below the entrance has now indeed been removed. Once again, I do not know when or by whom but it has clearly been done since Joel was there.

Let me stress, I have seen neither of the improvements mentioned above on the ground for myself, so please make allowances for this should my descriptions prove to be in any way inaccurate. I am relying purely upon verbal reports I have been given and photographs I have seen. I live sixty miles away from Pwll Du and do not get over there as often as I would like. In fact, my last visit (not caving, just a pleasant moonlit walk along the tramroad with my wife) was back at the beginning of December and I would be the first to acknowledge that things will have changed since then.

Hope this helps.

 

[Jopo]

Lets hope the outside bodies endorse the changes Nig reports. If so it cannot but help.

Jopo

 

[caving_fox]

is the main/traditional way into the cave being maintained?

Yes - at least to some degree. Just before the TwllDu saga commenced the main entrance had the shoring re-worked. I don't know if it's yet complete. I doubt all of the scaffolding was being replaced. There's a thread on here somewhere describing it.

 

[Jopo]

Lets hope the outside bodies endorse the changes Nig reports. If so it cannot but help.

Jopo

I have been asked to report here that the 'outside bodies' are indeed happy with the improvements to the covering (I do not use the term gating) of Twll Ddu

Jopo

 

[NigR]

Good to hear that everyone is in favour regarding the improvements to the covers at Twll Du. Thanks are due to whoever put them in place. I should perhaps have mentioned that the larger, upper grille is fastened to the lower lid with cable ties and it is preferable that it remains this way. It certainly should as I am confident that cavers will not be accessing Ogof Draenen via this entrance at the present time.

One final point to note concerning the covers is that it is absolutely vital there is adequate space allowed for bats to enter and exit the cave. This is the case at present and it needs to stay that way. So, please can I ask that, no matter how well intentioned it might be, nobody should be tempted to place anything else on top of what is there now? Whilst not wanting to sound like the PDCMG, I think it is worth pointing out that anyone deliberately obstructing bat access (not just here but at any bat frequented caves elsewhere) is breaking the law and could be on the receiving end of a hefty fine.

 

[Allan]

Joint Statement by the Secretaries of Pwll Du Cave Management Group (PDCMG) and Cambrian Caving Council (CCC).

There is a new entrance to Ogof Draenen, excavated within a Scheduled Monument. Following recent publicity, it has come to our attention that some cavers are contacting Cadw to question the closure of Twll Du. Cadw?s position in law is very clear in that Twll Du is within the boundary of a Scheduled Monument. Strong support was given at the community resolution meeting on the 10th January 2018 for Cadw's position that continued entry into Twll Du risks further damage to the Scheduled Monument which would be against the law. Going forward we ask that anyone who wishes to have further clarification on any aspects of Twll Du that they contact PDCMG (Sue Mabbett) or CCC (Allan Richardson) in the first instance, if we are unable to answer your query we will contact Cadw on your behalf.
Since the last postings by PDCMG and CCC, Cadw have, in response to queries, provided the following statement as part of their reply which clearly shows their legal position. 
?The aim of scheduling is to ensure the long-term preservation of a site. Any proposal to carry out works at a scheduled monument which would have the effect of demolishing, destroying, damaging, removing, repairing, altering, adding to, flooding, or covering up a monument must be the subject of an application for scheduled monument consent. It is an offence to carry out such works at the site of a scheduled monument without first obtaining scheduled monument consent. Cadw were not consulted about the excavation of the new hole, nor was scheduled monument consent sought or granted, and therefore the excavation constitutes unauthorised work carried out in breach of the 1979 and 2016 legislation. Continued use of the illegally excavated hole and damage caused by that use are also in breach of the legislation and could result in prosecution. There is an on-going Police investigation into the excavation and use of the illegal hole, and increased monitoring by Cadw, BBNPA and Gwent Police is being carried out.?
We ask the caving community to support us by respecting the wishes of Cadw.
Sue Mabbett, Secretary PDCMG, suemabbett@hotmail.com
Allan Richardson, Secretary CCC, secretary@cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk

 

[rhychydwr1]

From what I recall.  The "hole" was the result of an underground collapse and not an excavation.

 

[Rhys]

From what I recall.  The "hole" was the result of an underground collapse and not an excavation.

As usual Tony, you appear to be attempting to distort the facts for your own fun. Please don't.

If the hole did open due to an uderground collapse, it was a collapse that was initiated by cavers.

 

[rhychydwr1]

It is still a collapse .

 

[Jopo]

It is still a collapse .

And Linda Wilson was right.

Jopo

 

[Rhys]

It is still a collapse .

And you are a troll.

 

[Simon Wilson]

It is still a collapse .

And you are a troll.

An opinion and dependant on which side you're on.

 

[Simon Wilson]

It is still a collapse .

And Linda Wilson was right.

Jopo

Can you explain that for those of us not up to speed please? What has she got to do with it and she was right about what?

 

[royfellows]

It is still a collapse .

And Linda Wilson was right.

Jopo

Can you explain that for those of us not up to speed please? What has she got to do with it and she was right about what?

Questions seconded.

 

[SamT]

https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=22939.msg290362#msg290362

Congratulations! Eight pages on a none topic.  Does it really matter if Linda Wilson is BCA Legal Officer or not.  It will not effect me.  I will still go caving regardless. My only claim to fame is that Linda called me a "fuckwit". 

 

[Rhys]

It is still a collapse .

And you are a troll.

An opinion and dependant on which side you're on.

I don't have a side - I'm just attempting to call out nonsense when I see it.

It's an opinion based on my observations of his trollish behaviour on this subject. Previously he has claimed to have been into this new entrance and seen bats. I doubt very much that he has been in to this cave.

Rhys

 

[Badlad]

As a distant observer with an interest in cave access I cannot help myself in making a few comments.

I presume CADW is a public body and would be set up to answer enquiries by members of the public.  With all the mistrust surrounding the unfortunate and lengthy affair of Draenen you now seem to be asking interested parties to trust both CCC and PDCMG to accurately reflect and report enquiries on behalf of cavers.  Are you sure that level of trust is there yet?  I don't think I would have that confidence and I am only involved as an interested onlooker.  If I did want to seek clarification from CADW on any aspect of this issue I would certainly be contacting them direct.  It's a no brainer.

I'm also confused about the BCA involvement mentioned twice in the OP.  I've sat through all the recent BCA council meetings including the one just days before the site meeting referred to in the OP.  Draenen issues have not been discussed. BCA council has not sent any representative to these meetings and BCA does not take a view on Draenen.  If BCA do have a view on this matter it would be that this is a Welsh issue and would leave it to the regional council to deal with unless specifically asked to get involved.  If BCA were then asked to express a view it would most likely be a neutral one or supportive of regional councils efforts.  Constitutionally it is not able to do much else.

I can only hope that the seriousness of this latest debarkle will be the catalyst to bring the whole sorry episode to an end.  The damage this point scoring is doing to caving, especially in Wales, is considerable.  You couldn't make it up could you?

 

[BradW]

I'm also confused about the BCA involvement mentioned twice in the OP.

A reminder for Badlad what the BCA involvement has been:

On the BCA website is a statement about Draenen, specifically a notice from CCC which includes the following:

"The Cambrian Caving Council and the British Caving Association are asking cavers not to use or visit this entrance. We are also calling for restraint from making any remarks in any place which might encourage anyone to use or seek out this cave entrance. Important lessons need to be learned in the light of these developments and we look forward to working constructively and collectively with Cadw, and with all the other interested parties, to resolve this and have a positive future relationship."

Does this mean that BCA members who have ignored this advice since it was posted, are acting in contempt of the organisation they are members of?

 

[Rhys]

I too thought it was interesting that the caving bodies were now being asked to intercept queries, especially as a Cadw e-mail address was originally freely circulated and it was asked to direct queries to them. I suspect the individual there is fed up of hairy cavers hassling her and telling her how to do her job!

 

[Scrappycaver]

I too thought it was interesting that the caving bodies were now being asked to intercept queries, especially as a Cadw e-mail address was originally freely circulated and it was asked to direct queries to them. I suspect the individual there is fed up of hairy cavers hassling her and telling her how to do her job!

Or perhaps we're just back on the subject of wanting to be in control !

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