What's lurking under Bristol?

[cap n chris]

Woah! Peter and Graham are rocking on!

 

[axbridgecaver]

In this thread, the underground holes at Redcliffe have been variously called 'sand quarries' (Graham), 'mines' (c**tplaces) and 'caves' (Hughie).

The traditional meaning of 'quarry' is a place where squared block stone is worked, surface or underground. The modern meaning is an opencast extraction site for mineral/rock.

So Graham is wrong on both counts.

The term 'mine' is far more accurate, although traditionally, a mine need not necessarily be underground.

The term 'cave' might be OK if the excavations were primarily made to create underground space, for storage for example.

So c**tplaces wins the prize for using the best terminology, and Graham has to do more homework tonight.

For further information see my website www.bristoltours.com

 

[Peter Burgess]

Woah! Peter and Graham are rocking on!

Shhh! Don't disturb him. He's busy looking for a pre-1850 reference to "building stone mines". 

 

[graham]

My understand after 30 years and six months study of the underground is that mines are where minerals are extracted from; whereas quarries are where country rock is removed. Surface or underground is not really relevant. However, there are always discussions as to the nature of coal as both underground and open cast workings are commonly referred to as mines.

Well, bully for you. I was specifically describing the terms as used in their traditional or historical context, and not the modern usage. I would be very interested to see any historical references you may have to 'building stone mines', say pre-1850?

Try reading my post. Building stone is quite obviously a "rock" rather than a "mineral" in common parlance.

 

[graham]

Woah! Peter and Graham are rocking on!

Shhh! Don't disturb him. He's busy looking for a pre-1850 reference to "building stone mines". 

Why should I? Try re-reading my post. 

 

[Peter Burgess]

Concede, you fool, concede! The Redcliffe Caves have never been called quarries (except by you as far as I know) - prove me wrong!

 

[graham]

Concede, you fool, concede! The Redcliffe Caves have never been called quarries (except by you as far as I know) - prove me wrong!

They ain't been called mines either. 

 

[Peter Burgess]

Like the Reigate caves - sand mines which have frequently been called caves. Never quarries. I am prepared to be corrected if the caves were only dug to provide storage space. Still not quarries, though.

 

[Bob Smith]

if i recall correctly weren't they dug to provide high quality red sand for manufacture of Bristol blue glass?

 

[Peter Burgess]

if i recall correctly weren't they dug to provide high quality red sand for manufacture of Bristol blue glass?

Ah, sounds like a sand mine then. 

 

[wormster]

Like the Reigate caves - sand mines which have frequently been called caves. Never quarries. I am prepared to be corrected if the caves were only dug to provide storage space. Still not quarries, though.

How about Hosey Common??

 

[Peter Burgess]

Like the Reigate caves - sand mines which have frequently been called caves. Never quarries. I am prepared to be corrected if the caves were only dug to provide storage space. Still not quarries, though.

How about Hosey Common??

Poorly documented, but generally accepted to have been dug for building stone.

http://www.kurg.org.uk/ see Limestone Mines link. This was written when mine explorers were far less sure on 'correct' terminology. When writing for popular publication, 'mine' is still preferred by many rather than 'quarry' as a concession to the modern understanding of the terms.

 

[nickwilliams]

The traditional meaning of 'quarry' is a place where squared block stone is worked, surface or underground.

This is interesting, do we have a reference to check this out as it would be the proper answer as to why Box is called a Quarry and not a Mine.

The clue is in the etymology of the word 'quarry', which is from the Latin quadrum, square; by way of Middle English and Old French.

Nick.

 

[ChrisJC]

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php

quarry (2)
    "where rocks are excavated," c.1400, from M.L. quarreria (1266), lit. "place where stones are squared," from L. quadrare "to square" (see quadrant). The verb is attested from 1774.

mine (n.)
    c.1303, from O.Fr. mine, probably from a Celtic source (cf. Welsh mwyn, Ir. mein "ore, mine"), from O.Celt. *meini-. Italy and Greece were relatively poor in minerals, thus they did not contribute a word for this to Eng., but there was extensive mining from an early date in Celtic lands (Cornwall, etc.). The verb meaning "to dig in a mine" is from c.1300.

But does it really matter?

Chris.

 

[Peter Burgess]

But does it really matter?

It does when you write frequently on the subject, and therefore should at least try to use the proper terms. I find it helps greatly to appreciate the history of a place if you 'wear the right clothes'.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Two Surrey quarries are mentioned in Domesday as "duae fossae lapidum" - two pits for stone.

 

[Dep]

Coal has a mineral usage - thus it comes from a mine.
Sand is a mineral too - likewise mined, although modern open-cast is usually deemed quarrying in the modern sense.
Block stone is quarried - Hosey Common is a quarry.
Country rock pulled out for use as say agreggate is technically mineral usage, but like sand the modern parlance is 'quarried' from a quarry.

Redcliffe caves sound much like Reigate 'caves', sand dug as a mineral, technically mined but colloquially known as 'caves'.
But if it was sandstone dug out in blocks for use in local buildings then it is a quarry.

I'm with Peter on this, although not surprising as much of what I know on this subject comes from Peter and Paul Sowan.

 

[graham]

Italy and Greece were relatively poor in minerals, thus they did not contribute a word for this to Eng

Greece wasn't that poor. The most important mines in European early history were most probably the silver mines at Laurion near the east coast of Attica. These were worked by over 10,000 slaves at a time and their output was what allowed Athens to build the fleet which defeated the Persians at Salamis and enforced Athenian hegemony over Greece for a long time afterwards.

 

[cap n chris]

Bristol is such a surprising place!

 

[Peter Burgess]

allowed Athens to build the fleet which defeated the Persians at Salamis

I never was much good at classical history. I always thought the Greeks beat the Persians with salamis, not at salamis......

:-[