Author Topic: Chilean Mine Rescue  (Read 12893 times)

Offline AndyF

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2010, 06:59:40 pm »
I thought mines in the UK had to have a second entrance / exit by law, for precisely this reason?

Chris.

This is true (mostly). Mines in the UK generally have to have two independent entrances (two very adjacent shafts doesn't always count) although some small drift mines can be exempt. Its been like this since the 1860's I think.

Apparently there was a second entrance to the mine, a ventilation shaft, but it became unstable and had its ladders missing.

Wiki has quite a good description of the accident and steps taken, much better than the media has provided..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Copiap%C3%B3_mining_accident
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Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2010, 07:17:49 pm »
So actually, if they'd maintained the ventilation shaft, and not permitted mining to take place unless the ventilation shaft was usable, there would have been no rescue.

Maybe WL has a point  :-\

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Offline AndyF

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2010, 08:32:56 pm »
Maybe WL has a point  :-\
::)

Well yes.... but:

Quote
Obviously this would put extra costs on the mine but surely the workers lives are worth more than copper?

The brutal truth is that copper is worth more to the mine owners.  :doubt: Mining is a worldwide business, if you have standards and another country in Africa or Russia does not then their copper is cheaper. You are out of business and your miners are out of a job.

The UK still has lots of resources, but UK regulations makes most of them non-viable to extract.

 Only import protectionism would allow the UK to do the mining, and that just won't happen.

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Offline AndyF

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Re: Chilean miners
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2010, 08:34:37 pm »
Congrats to the Chilean's for rescuing the miners at long last after all that time
 :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:
On that note wasn't there some discussion some time ago about putting a bore hole into Darren ?

Wouldn't that count as a second entrance....  :spank:
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Offline Les W

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Re: Chilean miners
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2010, 08:36:54 pm »
Congrats to the Chilean's for rescuing the miners at long last after all that time
 :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:
On that note wasn't there some discussion some time ago about putting a bore hole into Darren ?

Wouldn't that count as a second entrance....  :spank:

Fourth entrance actually (or even fifth entrance if you're counting Elm Hole and Pwll y cwm as two)  :smartass:
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Offline mrodoc

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2010, 11:01:29 pm »
Am I the only one to think that some of this has all got  OTT.  From the medical point of view people have spend longer periods underground without harm. You don't have to go further than Cheddar Gorge for that! There was an indirect reference to the Floyd Collins incident in the Guardian letters page today which said it all.  Yes, an impressive rescue from the engineering point of view but why does it have be so hyped. Something nasty somewhere else happening we should know about?

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2010, 11:34:25 pm »
I think that it appeals to people's (non cavers that is) worst nightmares, being retrieved through a 2' wide tube half a mile long! In any case I thought the capsule (or it's spungloaded wheels) would be well knackered by now having travelled 20 miles or so.


Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2010, 08:17:56 am »
Am I the only one to think that some of this has all got  OTT.  From the medical point of view people have spend longer periods underground without harm. You don't have to go further than Cheddar Gorge for that! There was an indirect reference to the Floyd Collins incident in the Guardian letters page today which said it all.  Yes, an impressive rescue from the engineering point of view but why does it have be so hyped. Something nasty somewhere else happening we should know about?

Please expand - I'm not aware of any unintended incidents at Cheddar that have lasted longer than this one?

Anyway, it's a good news story, which makes a magnificent change from all the doom & gloom that dominates the news normally.

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Offline graham

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2010, 08:38:39 am »
Am I the only one to think that some of this has all got  OTT.  From the medical point of view people have spend longer periods underground without harm. You don't have to go further than Cheddar Gorge for that! There was an indirect reference to the Floyd Collins incident in the Guardian letters page today which said it all.  Yes, an impressive rescue from the engineering point of view but why does it have be so hyped. Something nasty somewhere else happening we should know about?

Please expand - I'm not aware of any unintended incidents at Cheddar that have lasted longer than this one?

Anyway, it's a good news story, which makes a magnificent change from all the doom & gloom that dominates the news normally.

Chris.

Pete was thinking of David Lafferty who reputedly spent 130 days in Gough's Cave. Unintended incidents at Cheddar don't last anywhere near as long. Just ask C**** C***** who managed two in one day.

Anyway, they are all out now so the cynics can find something else to moan about.
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Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2010, 10:02:43 am »
Pete was thinking of David Lafferty who reputedly spent 130 days in Gough's Cave. Unintended incidents at Cheddar don't last anywhere near as long. Just ask C**** C***** who managed two in one day.

Ah, so entirely different then. Comparing a planned record-breaking underground stay (presumably with sufficient necessities), and an unplanned mine collapse with totally inadequate provisions and the psychological effects of the likelyhood of a prolonged death by starvation.......... Apples & apples.

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Offline Les W

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2010, 10:52:59 am »
Unintended incidents at Cheddar don't last anywhere near as long. Just ask C**** C***** who managed two in one day.

 :spank:

 :lol: :lol: 
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Offline Roger W

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2010, 10:58:48 am »
Anyway, it's great news that they got them all out safely!
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Offline Roger W

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2010, 11:04:18 am »
Regarding certain other thoughts and suggestions in this thread...

Surely whenever you get people digging/tunneling mining away from open passage (however many entrances there may be to said open passage) there may be some possibility or danger that a roof fall or other event may trap them at the end of their tunnel?

So should all you cave diggers ensure your own safety by having an escape route dug from the surface to wherever you are digging to before you start digging?      :)
"That, of course, is the dangerous part about caves:  you don't know how far they go back, sometimes... or what is waiting for you inside."   JRR Tolkein: "The Hobbit"

Offline Les W

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2010, 12:01:50 pm »
So should all you cave diggers ensure your own safety by having an escape route dug from the surface to wherever you are digging to before you start digging?      :)

It's a good point. I will raise it at the next BCA council meeting. I'm sure with the right lobbying of government we can get it into UK law in the next session of Parliament.     :-\
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Offline mrodoc

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2010, 01:53:46 pm »
I thought my posting would prove provocative! I agree that some of the circumstances are different but we do know that just being underground for long periods is not specifically detrimental to your health. Once the miners had been located they had the advantage of being orientated in time, able to communicate with family and be provided with medication.  I heard talk of vision problems from being underground, decompression issues (people always ask why it isn't hot or airless in caves) etc. etc. This is what I meant by OTT. It starts to make you cynical about many things one hears or is told in the press.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2010, 01:58:17 pm »
I see your point (although I suggest it wasn't particularly clear in your first post!). I agree that after contact was made, and provisions were arriving, then yes, punch-ups aside, they could have stayed there for a much longer period.

But until that point, I think it must have been pretty dire.

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Offline graham

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2010, 01:59:31 pm »
Cynical about the press, Pete? You'll be telling me next you don't trust politicians!
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Offline mrodoc

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2010, 02:23:15 pm »
My posts tend to be brief so that's why my original point didn't come over. Regarding politicians I think you have to make too many compromises to make it a job I would enjoy and I think they need to be more honest - I find it irritating that they assume the public are idiots. But then as a fellow medic pointed the average IQ is 100 (and I can bet that most posters on this forum are about 30 points higher). Probably being provocative again :spank:

Offline Rhys

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2010, 08:29:30 pm »
Last night on ITV news there was a psychologist talking about the mental damage the miners may suffer. He said they would be haunted by the sounds and smells that they were subjected to in the mine. I thought, what a load of crap. The guys were miners and heard and smelt these things every day! It's not like they suddenly eneded up in a completely alien environment.

To a point Pete, I take your point. I think the rescue was a fanstastic technical achievement though. I would've expected food parcels getting jammed in the supply pipe on a regular basis and also the rescue capsule jamming - that doesn't bear thinking about! Gives me nightmares.

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Offline mrodoc

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2010, 07:43:44 am »
The meejah seem very keen to hype up the physical impact. I couldn't believe it when they had a dentist on PM talking about their potential dental problems.

Offline graham

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2010, 08:50:24 am »
Apparently quite a few of them "thanked god" for their release, rather than the guys who had actually done the work. I'd like to know why he buried the poor sods in the first place and why he reckoned these guys were worth saving but the 214 poor sods killed in the Chilean earthquake back in February were not.
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Offline SamT

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2010, 09:04:54 am »

I think the focus on their physical health has been way OTT. I can understand a few mental problems, like wanting to punch the living daylights out of one of your fellow captives cause he's been annoying the fuck out of you for the last 6 weeks and your trapped in a hole with him.

One of the commentators I heard seemed surprised that they could walk unaided from the capsule.... WTF  :wall:

They've had water, food, light, medical supplies, communication etc - surely a few toothbrushes may have been passed down.

However..
Quote
the rescue capsule jamming

that makes me shudder. Hadn't really thought about that. It wouldn't take much really would it  :unsure:



 

Offline Jopo

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2010, 09:12:39 am »
The meejah seem very keen to hype up the physical impact. I couldn't believe it when they had a dentist on PM talking about their potential dental problems.

Fancy one of the medical profession taking the opportunity of a appearance fee  ::)

Take any bunch of miners ( or any manual workers) - from a relatively poor country -
isolate them for nigh on 70 days and be surprised if the preexisting medical problems they took in with them got worse.
Wonder how many were cured of some sort of addiction?
Imagine it was a bunch of cavers. A gate would have been fitted to the shaft and a committee formed in seconds.

 All the bollocks aside it was a remarkably skilled and successfull rescue and the engineers should be congratulated.
It would be good if that side of the story was published.

Jopo

Offline graham

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2010, 10:30:37 am »

Take any bunch of miners ( or any manual workers) - from a relatively poor country -
isolate them for nigh on 70 days and be surprised if the preexisting medical problems they took in with them got worse.
Wonder how many were cured of some sort of addiction?
Imagine it was a bunch of cavers. A gate would have been fitted to the shaft and a committee formed in seconds.

 All the bollocks aside it was a remarkably skilled and successfull rescue and the engineers should be congratulated.
It would be good if that side of the story was published.

Jopo

The addiction thing is probably true as they were, quite specifically, not supplied with either wine or tobacco

The engineers: the guy who controlled the tunnel, apparently an American, left before the first one came out as he didn't want to be part of the media party as they were rescued.

As for your point about cavers, perhaps we should ask if the rescue rig was covered by their PI insurance?
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Offline Jopo

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2010, 11:04:42 am »

Take any bunch of miners ( or any manual workers) - from a relatively poor country -
isolate them for nigh on 70 days and be surprised if the preexisting medical problems they took in with them got worse.
Wonder how many were cured of some sort of addiction?
Imagine it was a bunch of cavers. A gate would have been fitted to the shaft and a committee formed in seconds.

 All the bollocks aside it was a remarkably skilled and successfull rescue and the engineers should be congratulated.
It would be good if that side of the story was published.

Jopo

The addiction thing is probably true as they were, quite specifically, not supplied with either wine or tobacco

The engineers: the guy who controlled the tunnel, apparently an American, left before the first one came out as he didn't want to be part of the media party as they were rescued.

As for your point about cavers, perhaps we should ask if the rescue rig was covered by their PI insurance?

Shit! Never thought of the BCA rake off!

Jopo

 

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